Tractor Hacking

[TractorGuy]

May have been posted but this was the first I saw of this video.

 

[mddorange]

Very interesting video.

Having been in IT for most of my life, I know first hand about hackers. Sometimes it makes great sense to have the ability to work on and modify software. Sometimes not so much.

 

[TractorGuy]

Auto manufacturers have been required to make factory diagnostic equipment and manuals available for years. Nothing says they have to make it affordable but they cannot disallow the general public from the knowledge and equipment to diagnose and repair their own vehicles. They also cannot void warranties due to modifications unless they can PROVE the modification caused the failure. No reason the Ag market should be any different.

 

[mddorange]

Remember when the current refrigerant first came out to replace freon and they said that it would not be sold to anyone without a HYVAC license. Well look at stores now, everyone is selling the same cans as before.

 

[RandyT]

JD is treating their system like Microsoft. You own the computer but we only give you a license to use our software. You are not allowed under agreement to access, modify or change our software without our permission is how they are looking at it. The are treating it like Tesla does their customers. Can't use salvaged parts without having Tesla program the computer to work with that part. Or if somebody purchases a salvage Tesla, Testa will not allow use of their supercharger stations, or support system without paying like $1500 for a possible dealer recertification. Which there have been cases where Tesla has turned off features on owners cars because of non certification such as the supercharging stations and the boost feature.

 

[dnw64]

Somehow the automakers have been forced into that corner, probably by lobbyists.

Makers of off-road equipment makers (apparently) have not. Yet.

But I am willing to bet that, as Randy implies, when you buy one of their tractors you are signing an agreement that states you are only buying the right to use the software, and agree that only those authorized to do so will have access to it. You are not forced to sign the agreement, but you will not be taking a tractor off the lot until you sign.

 

[vvanders]

Yeah, cars were mandated to use OBD2 due to emissions control requirements(CARB and the like define OBD2 spec) so you can thank them for the ability to poke at your car over that interface.

For what it's worth Kubota/Kioti and a few others do the same thing with their engines. Very little difference in the mechanical bits across ~10HP, most of it is mapping in software. There's efficiencies to be gained in standardizing on one physical size and selling more tractors than if you had bespoke engines for each size. However you mess with that and you won't get any warranty support.

As for Tesla disabling supercharging I'm sorry but I totally understand that one. As someone who spends a fair amount of time with an oscilloscope all it takes is for you to backfeed the HVDC down one of the control signal paths and you'll cause $$$ damage to their infrastructure. Seen plenty of people hacking on Teslas and most of them are a walking darwin award. No protection, poking at bus bars and other stupid things. EVs are different than wrenching on a traditional car, closer to working on something where the engine is running and/or could be running in a split-second. For instance all you need to do is touch one of the door handles to flip the HVDC relay and energize the entire power bus.

Nominal pack is in the 450VDC/1200A range which will happily kill you if you look at it funny and brush against something you shouldn't.

 

[/pine]

...an agreement that states you are only buying the right to use the software...

The same can be said for any software...unless it made available with a GNU license...
The only person(s) that owns a script/software is the person that actually wrote it (and or the source code)...or the contract holder that employed a second party coder...

It's hardly just M$FT....it's any company that produces any software products or applications....when anyone downloads an app to their phone...they have agreed to abide by the usage rules...no average/regular user owns any software regardless of how much they might of spent for it...The average retail price of "PhotoShop" is about $750-$800...but all that buys you is a copy of the program and the right to use it as per the agreement you have to agree to or not use the program...

 

[vvanders]

It's a nitpick but GNU doesn't have a monopoly on open source licensing, Apache, MIT and others are just as common.

You'll also find Microsoft a different company today, they're doing a ton of stuff in the open source space and mostly moving to SaaS. Heck take a look at VSCode and the like, wide open source and totally free compared to what Visual Studio used to run.

 

[/pine]

It's a nitpick but GNU doesn't have a monopoly on open source licensing, Apache, MIT and others are just as common.

You'll also find Microsoft a different company today, they're doing a ton of stuff in the open source space and mostly moving to SaaS. Heck take a look at VSCode and the like, wide open source and totally free compared to what Visual Studio used to run.

Sorry, you are correct and it's not really a nitpick...in a lot of cases everyone (including the big corps) gains by open source software not just the end users...but you know as well as I that it didn't start out that way...I think corps like 'DE' will sooner or later realize this...

 

[vvanders]

Yeah, open source software is an interesting phenomenon. Basically what happens when the cost of manufacturing something is zero. One person can have a huge impact if they build the right thing.

I've released a fair number of stuff under Apache/MIT, none really took off but it makes for a fun hobby if that's your sort of thing.

 

[dnw64]

The same can be said for any software...unless it made available with a GNU license...
The only person(s) that owns a script/software is the person that actually wrote it (and or the source code)...or the contract holder that employed a second party coder...

True. My point was that most people buying a tractor probably don't realize they are buying software too, and that the Sales Agreement includes the software licensing language that they probably don't read.

BTW we own a copy of the source code of our ERP software (that was standard procedure for any buyer in 1999 when we bought it - not sure about now), and are welcome to modify it any way we see fit. We also have a lifetime license to use it. About the only thing we can't do is resell it.

 

[CincyFlyer]

Hopefully it will become OK to legally hack (at ones own risk, of course.) I was told by a Mahindra dealer that the extra five hp in a 2545 over my 2540 is merely software; five horses ain't much, unless you only have forty to start with. I want 'em!

 

[1010]

We have two new Holland T6 155s at work with <500hrs. One went down the other day, it will crank but idle only, the next day we get it back to the shop. Check everything we know to check.
Call the dealer 30 miles away, young guy shows up the next day. He works on it half a day and thinks it's a sensor and will have it over night shipped.
Two days later we call to check on things. Part was never ordered, wait? wut? WTF?
I'm over a barrel spread eagle, I see very quickly.
They order the part he shows up the next day and installs, BOOM, same thing machine won't work. We are waiting on the second sensor.
It's been ten working days now and the machine is still down.
on another side note same dealer has had to send a guy to recalibrate the transmission twice and they still aren't consistent on the clutch and some gears will almost pick up the front wheels IT FEELS like, very hard.

Back to my point, even having the real software doesn't help a lot of times. Or the guy using it doesn't have a clue, BTW we've had two guys looking at the tractors.
Or the software won't pin point the problem and it's just a crap shoot like a needle in a haystack. I don't see how Joe the plumber can take this kind of abuse and keep a float.

Seeing this, I'm all for deleting that garbage off my tractor JD tractor. I can't afford getting such a run around.

 

[CincyFlyer]

We have two new Holland T6 155s at work with <500hrs. One went down the other day, it will crank but idle only, the next day we get it back to the shop. Check everything we know to check.
Call the dealer 30 miles away, young guy shows up the next day. He works on it half a day and thinks it's a sensor and will have it over night shipped.
Two days later we call to check on things. Part was never ordered, wait? wut? WTF?
I'm over a barrel spread eagle, I see very quickly.
They order the part he shows up the next day and installs, BOOM, same thing machine won't work. We are waiting on the second sensor.
It's been ten working days now and the machine is still down.
on another side note same dealer has had to send a guy to recalibrate the transmission twice and they still aren't consistent on the clutch and some gears will almost pick up the front wheels IT FEELS like, very hard.

Back to my point, even having the real software doesn't help a lot of times. Or the guy using it doesn't have a clue, BTW we've had two guys looking at the tractors.
Or the software won't pin point the problem and it's just a crap shoot like a needle in a haystack. I don't see how Joe the plumber can take this kind of abuse and keep a float.

Seeing this, I'm all for deleting that garbage off my tractor JD tractor. I can't afford getting such a run around.

Back in the day, when I was a line mechanic and electronics were just beginning to rear their ugly head, I was the "diagnosis guy" in our dealership chain (having had an amateur radio geek for a father, I learned electronics early.) I would imagine that there are some issues that are genuinely hard to solve, but most are likely relatively straightforward, with the right technician at the wheel. Or meter, gauge, or scope.

 

[dnw64]

Seeing this, I'm all for deleting that garbage off my tractor JD tractor.

By which you mean, trading it in for an older one...