Trencher chain

[Taylortractornut]

I have a friend that has a 425 powertrac and hes in a bit of a tight spot with cash. PT wants 500 for a chain and 115 for the idler and 90 for the drive sprockets plus tax and frieght. I can get parts aftermarket well they probably make theparts for PT from Atalnta Chain and roller co now Ballantine inc. I buy alot of scraper chains from them and they are very reasonable. I can cross refference the parts by measuring them but while the machine was torn down his sorry step sone scrapped the chains and sprockets I was wanting to know if some one here might know the center to cenet distance on the pins and the diameter of the sprockets. PT didnt want to mention this to me only that it was about 750worth of parts. Ive put longer chains on other trenchers recently and it not been this high. Take care Taylor Lambert

 

[J_J]

My chain is worn out also, and when I called them about prices, it was way up there. If the chain is worn out, the sprocket is worn out. However, I am going to weld and build up the worn side, and see if I can get a little more use out of the chain. It's to bad they don't make replaceable links, or maybe somebody does. . You could just build your own, or replace any defective link. [ PT's insider ], Now don't tell the customers where we get our trenching chain, and don't give out dimensions, and for sure, do not show them any pictures. I forgot, don't tell them how tight the chain should be. We want them to wear that sucker out real fast.

I will tell you, that when it is working as advertised, and pointed almost straight down, it will dig a 4 ft trench fairly fast here in out Florida sand. I also have the wheeled trencher which will double as a stump grinder.

 

[BobRip]

I can cross refference the parts by measuring them but while the machine was torn down his sorry step sone scrapped the chains and sprockets I was wanting to know if some one here might know the center to cenet distance on the pins and the diameter of the sprockets. PT didnt want to mention this to me only that it was about 750worth of parts. Ive put longer chains on other trenchers recently and it not been this high. Take care Taylor Lambert

I made some measurements. As best I can see the outside diameter of the drive sprocket is 7 inches. This is a five tooth sprocket and it is kinda difficult to measure exactly.
The pin center to center is 3.5 inches to 3 5/8 inches. I cannot easily tell any more accurately without pulling it out of storage. This is not a big deal, but I hope the data that I have given you is accurate enough. Let me know if you need a more accurate measurement. I would appreciate it if someone else would verify my measurements. Taylor, please let us know where you get the parts and part numbers so we can buy them cheaper when the time comes.

 

[Taylortractornut]

Thanks for the measures. I know PT has to make money but dang. See most trencher and scraper elevator chain in the US is made by Ballantine / Atlanta Chain and roller. They can sell me one side of our scraper elevator chain that is around 18 feet long for 1000 bucks and its alot more chain that that dinky trencher chain. I can get ballantine to match the chain and sprockets to that and I can probably get a chain for half. The man at PT made mention that I couldnt get them elsewhere, kinda gave me the monkey butt when he said that. If I could find a sproket that was worn down 1/4 inch I could stick one in my pattern burner and let the tracer roller cut one out. I need the width of the sprocket and the diameter of the roller in the chain now and I think I can get some numbers. I know on our 762 JD scraper Deere wanted 4500 for 2 chains not counting the new hardware or sprockets or the loading flights. I called Ballantine and I could get both sprockets both chains and new hardware plus shipped to the shop for 1950 bucks. If I can gather a parts kit Ill make one for my Case skid steer to. One thing that will get added to this PT trencher Im working on will be and idler sprocket like on a Vermeer trencher his bottom plate was nearly worn in half. Take care and thanks for the measurements

 

[MossRoad]

We want pictures!

 

[SnowRidge]

I wonder how many people considering a PT read these posts, then quietly go buy something else? Their mark up on parts is simply outrageous. I bought a hydraulic cooler fan for literally one third of PT's price, delivered.

 

[ponytug]

I don't hold it against PT, and I think it isn't atypical, and there may be reasons for it. Look at the Case example above.

If you dig around, you can almost always find OEM parts more cheaply elsewhere. I have always thought that it was the reward for digging around. In 1988, I can remember picking up an oxygen sensor for my first car for $19.50 that the dealer wanted $300 for.

I've been on both sides of the issue, and I can sympathize with PT. When you are a low volume manufacturer, it can be difficult to inexpensively specify, manufacture, inventory, ship, and bill for parts. You are often between the proverbial rock and a hard place- if you do a short run of the part, it will cost a lot per part, but if you do a large run that gives you a cheaper manufacturing cost, then the run is so large that it costs you so much capital that the end user price is the same, plus you have to inventory all the items.

If the customer needs evolve, or if you can come up with engineering innovations, then there is pressure for the manufacturer to choose the shorter run to get improvements to its customers sooner.

The dealers often have a great deal of capital tied up in parts, which adds to the price of the part every second it sits on the shelf. If shipping weren't an issue, ideally you would have one warehouse for everyone. In the real world, there is the tradeoff between logistically close (the dealer in town) and distant (manufacturer). PT certainly doesn't have the supply chain logistics well worked out. e.g. they ask the customer to pay for shipping rather than getting a larger volume contract with UPS and paying for it themselves and billing the customer.

Now, that said, I think PT, Deutz, Case, Ford, Kubota, and a few others could use some real help on their engineering and supply chain efforts.

All the best,

Peter

I wonder how many people considering a PT read these posts, then quietly go buy something else? Their mark up on parts is simply outrageous. I bought a hydraulic cooler fan for literally one third of PT's price, delivered.

 

[SnowRidge]

I've been on both sides of the issue, and I can sympathize with PT. When you are a low volume manufacturer, it can be difficult to inexpensively specify, manufacture, inventory, ship, and bill for parts. You are often between the proverbial rock and a hard place- if you do a short run of the part, it will cost a lot per part, but if you do a large run that gives you a cheaper manufacturing cost, then the run is so large that it costs you so much capital that the end user price is the same, plus you have to inventory all the items.

Snip..

Most of the parts that they jack up are off-the-shelf items which they simply buy elsewhere. There is no PT manufacturing involved in them. Plus PT goes out of their way to hide the original part numbers from their customers. They even do it for consumables like hydraulic filters. Nothing like having to place a $50 minimum order plus shipping to get a single $16.00 hydraulic filter that goes for half that at Napa.

It is a very strange way to do business when your products are owner serviced and maintained. You would think they would promote the idea that the machines can be serviced with common off-the-shelf items available locally in most parts of the country. Instead, they do the opposite.

 

[ponytug]

Dear Snowridge,

I agree. The private labeling is annoying. The brand removal is way beyond annoying. I admit that I have been buying the filters at Napa. The shipping to/from PT is a little pricey on the opposite end of the country.

It is an odd company, what can we say?

Love the tractor though.

32F and the diesel starts right up.

All the best,

Peter

Most of the parts that they jack up are off-the-shelf items which they simply buy elsewhere. There is no PT manufacturing involved in them. Plus PT goes out of their way to hide the original part numbers from their customers. They even do it for consumables like hydraulic filters. Nothing like having to place a $50 minimum order plus shipping to get a single $16.00 hydraulic filter that goes for half that at Napa.

It is a very strange way to do business when your products are owner serviced and maintained. You would think they would promote the idea that the machines can be serviced with common off-the-shelf items available locally in most parts of the country. Instead, they do the opposite.

 

[Taylortractornut]

Thats why I hate our JD scraper, Since JD doesnt carry any more parts for it we have to order aftermarket but Deere wont even help with that You can call Cat and theyll cross refference out a filter for you even if you arent buying it from them. I may have to build a chain for now out of mill chain and tiller teeth. To get buy a few days till we can get up with Ballantine.

 

[J_J]

Thats why I hate our JD scraper, Since JD doesnt carry any more parts for it we have to order aftermarket but Deere wont even help with that You can call Cat and theyll cross refference out a filter for you even if you arent buying it from them. I may have to build a chain for now out of mill chain and tiller teeth. To get buy a few days till we can get up with Ballantine.

Do you happen to know if the main sprocket can be turned around so you could use the unused backside?

 

[Taylortractornut]

JJ i dont know about the PT since I havent seen these sprockets about the sleecve mount but On a Ditch Witch or a Vermeer they will work a little running reverse But will want to jump and pop because the teeth will have a deeper offset valley from wear plus the wear on the chain link rollers. I gives a little problem with the meshing so to speak. Ive tried this on our Paddle wheels scraper at work as the side the is pon the pull side when loading wears the fastest and turn them around and they want to kink up and bind alot even when the chain hasnt got a load on it. Its kinda the same thing when you use a Dozer in a draw bar application for a long time the track bushings wear one sided from the one way pulling of a disc or scraper then when it backs up it wont mesh and wants to jump the rails or bind up. You might can lok up a company that makes a sprocket liner, I havent seen one in a while but they make these liners that you weld i nthe valleys of a worn sprocket that is difficult to replace or down disasembly isnt feasible. Ive used them on older cranes that have hunting tooth sprockets and no time betwwen shifts to break down a track chain and remove and reinstall a sprocket. You can just lay the right liner in the valley smoke it up and move to the next notch and repeat. When i worked for Corsby an sons a trenching contractor we have to do this alot on the tracked chain trenchers in the limestone and shale about every 3 shifts. yo ucan get all sizes.

 

[J_J]

I had been thinking about building up the worn side of the sprocket with hard surfacing, but I am in doubt about the logic. I am thinking that it will just wear out the rest of the chain faster. My roll links are worn down to the pin in some spots. If only the joints were bolted. You can't weld the rollover link, as it would weld the pin also. Bummer.

You know, I just might try and make some parts that bolt together. I guess the critical part is in getting the valley measurement correct. Might even be able to reverse the sprocket and save expense on them. That sprocket might also have a tapered shaft, and that would put that idea in the dirt. Pun intended.

If you have to replace a chain, you have to do the sprockets also, and that is just about everything except the hydraulic motor. At $500.00 for a replacement chain, it will have to sit for a while.

 

[sandman2234]

I remember looking at J_J's chain the first time Mr. Jimi (rest his soul) and I went to visit him. It didn't seem like a hard project to make new parts, once you got set up to do it. Somebody like 3RRL could probably turn out a couple a day from his shop and not even fire up the standby generator. Somebody with more time than money could sure do well making the parts and putting them together.
David from jax

 

[J_J]

I am just wondering if you can reverse the chain and realign the cutting teeth. Maybe the bolt holes for the teeth will match

 

[sandman2234]

Worth a try, even if you have to remake the digging teeth, it would still be cheaper than buying a new chain!
David from jax


J_J,
We need to get together about your new table.
David

 

[Taylortractornut]

Yep fraid so on chainging the sprockets if you have a worn part and you put a new or rebuilt part with the worn it will wear pretty quickly. What Im setting up with Ballantine is to see if I can get a a pinned chain like they use on an asphault laydown machine and on a scraper chain they have pins that lock the ends together. and the bushing can be replaced and the chain run on the backside of the rails if it isnt stretched too bad and yo ucan change the rollers if you can flipp the chain.

 

[J_J]

I found this aggressive chain on the net.

 

[Taylortractornut]

JJ that first one is called a gator back and the second is called Sharks teeth. They work wekk only in had rocky soile the firsts it really ment for super high concentraions of rock.

 

[J_J]

Here is a web site that I found a lot of info.

http://www.excavationsupply.com/documents/NEWWEBCATOLOG.pdf