Truck Exhaust System

[JATO_RaT]

I am sure many of you guys have discussed this before, I did not seem to come up with much info on a quick search regarding truck exhaust systems.

I have a 1993 Ford F250 non turbo diesel. Banks offers a load of stuff from turbos to exhaust systems, but I am not interested in turbo charging this old IDI diesel primarily because of cost and the exhaust system seemed incredibly expensive for some bent pipe and a muffler. Would a larger exhaust be beneficial or is it a waste of money/time for the slight ( I presume) increase in performance? I go up a fairly steep grade up to just over 7000' routinely. At about 5000', the diesel is out of air as is evident by the increased black smoke. I have a K&N air filter, standard exhaust and automatic transmission. Any suggestions or recommendations to where I could purchase a exhaust system via mail order or is this pretty much a take it to a muffler shop and have them do it? Thanks, Mark

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Don't know where you hail from but if you have a good custom shop they might help you for question about diesels i'd try looking at either a local RV shop or on the web try the diesel stop they seem to have an active site. I go to a Jeepster site at offroad .com its not as active but they have a ford only forum also

it not much help but maybe a start

Cheers
Tony

 

[BobinCols]

Rat-I don't think a performance exhaust system will help. I believe Banks to build a quality exhaust system, but the cost is too much. If your truck has over 150,000 miles, a rebuilt injection pump or having yours rebuilt could help as the advance in the pump wears out. They can be taken on and off in under 4 hours. The turbo would be nice but is cost prohibitive on a 10 year old truck. Start saving for a powerstroke or Cummins. Turbocharging wakes up a diesel engine that is naturally aspirated.

 

[cowboydoc]

We've owned alot of those trucks Rat. Still have four or five on the ranches. An exhaust is a waste of money without doing the turbo as the perf. you get from just the exhaust will be minimal. I'm not a big fan of Banks. We've always used ATS.

 

[dmccarty]

Mark,

I don't think this really applies to your truck question but FYI,
I saw a truck show on TNN this weekend that was modifying
a diesel PU. I forgot the name of the show, but its one of
those shows with two guys who work on cars/trucks on TNN.

I missed the first part of the show but they where putting on
a exhaust system.

The rest of the show was putting in a Propane and NOX
system to get more HP. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think they where using Bull Dog equipment.

The truck was a Chevy.

FYI,
Dan McCarty

 

[MikePA]

Hi Dan, you have your TNN shows mixed up. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif The show was Trucks! and Stacey David was installing Bully Dog parts. It was a Chevy, though!

 

[JATO_RaT]

Thank You for the opinions. I suspected that such was the case. While it would be nice to have more power particularly at the higher altitudes, it's just not that important. The thought of adding a turbo charger to this old IDI non turbo Navistar just is not very appealing especially when you know that there are far nicer diesels out there today. I'll stick with what I have and perhaps down the road consider rebuilding the injection pump. I have about 150K on the truck. Thanks, Rat...

 

[cowboydoc]

If the body is in good shape and you only have 150k I would do it. They aren't hard to put on. You can get the kit for less than $2k and an exhaust can be had for around $400. If you plan on keeping the truck for any length of time I would do it. You will be amazed at the increase in power.

 

[RobertN]

Mark,
What kind of condition is the exhaust in? If it is getting worn, then you might as well replace it with a bigger exhaust. It certianly won't hurt, and may give you some noticeable improvement. While I agree with Richard and the others that it will not be a major improvement, it certianly would not hurt.

I would look at a local shop in Auburn or Sac to do the work. There is a place here in Shingle that does that type of stuff. I have looked at a 4" setup, but with barely 30k miles, just can't justify the $$$ right now. In talking to the shop over here, they seemed knowledgable about what they were doing.

Have you checked out any of the Ford sites? I know there is info about tuning Dodges, from the simple to the extreme. Every little bit will help perforamnce and mileage, even if it is just a tiny bit. A lot of tiny bits add up in the end...

 

[JATO_RaT]

Richard, Robert, the truck and the exhaust are in great shape. Replacing the exhaust now would be throwing away a perfectly good looking exhaust system, at least on the outside. I see I actually have 135K on it. Richard you mentioned you don't like Banks and do like ATS. I know little about either but the advertising at Banks certainly makes the Banks appear to be the only way to go. Someone mentioned the Ford or truck forums as a great place for info but frankly, I went to one and it was just not for me. I'm not into my vehicles much, not like tractors. It's nice just to get some opinions here at TBN from folks that certainly seem to know what they are talking about. Thanks again, Rat...

 

[Egon]

It would seem the truck has served you well to this point. Why bother changing for the few seconds saved climbing the hill.

The truck forums don't do much for me either.

Egon

 

[cowboydoc]

We did a Banks system once. Their customer service was deplorable. They want to charge you for stuff you don't need, like you ahve to buy a complete kit instead of pieces. They are overpriced. Their equipment is not superior to other stuff out there. They also don't stand behind their product very well either.

With ATS you never heard a bad word. Customer service was excellent. They would stay on the phone for two hours trying to help you out. Banks wanted to charge you or tell you to take it in to a qualified repair place. ATS also had no questions about warranty. I know several guys that Banks would not replace their system when it failed. I have never heard of one single case where ATS didn't stand behind what they sold and tryed to blame the customer. Also ATS would send guys to meetings back when we used to have trouble with Ford warranty. All Banks would do is copy the Mag. Moss Act and mail it to you.

It's been a number of years since we dealth with them as the new trucks all started having turbos. From past experience though I would not recommend or buy products from Banks.

 

[JATO_RaT]

Your right except one thing that really bugs you when getting up to 6000 plus feet is the smoke that ends up spewing out the exhaust. It looks pretty bad so I let up on the pedal to decrease it.

Richard, thats good to know if I ever seriously consider going this route.

 

[JATO_RaT]

Richard, I called ATS just for the heck of it. After dragging an empty 3500lb dump trailer (empty weight) and my truck bed loaded with about 2000lbs of material, I realized that when the North American Van Lines truck blew by me uphill at 5000', I needed help. The fella at ATS was fantastic and actually suggested I replace each injector and rebuild the pump prior to or in place of a turbo system. He mentioned the turbo will improve that high altitude issue dramaticaly, but at a price. I asked about the Banks product and he said "we don't bad mouth Banks, it's a great product as well. We use a lot of cast iron for heat retention as well as far fewer parts. Both offer equivalent improvements period" I like hearing folks opinions like that. Thanks for the recommendation, Rat....

 

[RobertN]

I have one idea for the exhaust that is really cheap to try... Try uncorking it to see how performance changes. Run it open exhaust for a trip to Grass Valley or some other afternoon ride.

Uncorking would give you a relative idea of what a hi-flow exhaust would do. And, it can be just a temporary thing, for a day or afternoon. You have to consider that loader does not improve the performance, but the decrease in back pressure might help. That might give you an idea what it would be like.

I have talked to folks who take the muffle out, and just leave in the resonator.

Whe you talked to ATS, did they say to replace the injector because of wearout, or to go to a bigger size? Did they mention if there was anything to do to maintian the injectors? And, the same for the pump? I'm curious about the life expectancy on both(even though I have the Dodge, I would imagine they are at least remotely similar). Is changing the injector a required maint, like changing plugs in a gas engine?

This is an interesting thread, regardless of truck brand, especially as more info is presented.

 

[JATO_RaT]

Robert, I think the injector replacement is more specific to the Stanadyne injectors for the old Navistar diesel and even the old diesel in the GM trucks. My understanding is that the Cummins has pretty bullet proof injectors and don't neccessarily need replacement at this interval. The replacement injectors will be exactly the same. What happens is either the spray pattern gets bad and has poor atomization or droplets of fuel, or the pop off pressure gets off and prematurely opens. Typical when the spring goes weak. Pop off is as I remember about 1700 PSI for this older diesel. The Stanadyne pump will be rebuilt. Pretty standard procedure. Cost for a rebuilt is $350, injectors brand new are $30.00. I have considered doing just as you said, removing the muffler connection and letting it free flow, just for the heck of it and when I have time. I think it's pretty fair to say that back when this diesel was built, the Cummins had it all over either diesel from Ford or GM. Today it seems less of an issue and quite frankly, I would enjoy the response from any of them. The new Cummins that is out is so quiet, a nice feature to an already superb diesel. Rat...

 

[cowboydoc]

Rat,

Yep you found out why we always dealt with them. No egos there. Just nice people with a great product. They let their customer service and equipment do the talking for them.

Robert,

On those old 7.3's and 6.9's you could get 100-150k on the pumps before they need rebuilt. Injectors usually go to about 150k. On those old ones though you can replace all 8 injectors for the price of 1 on the powerstrokes!!!

 

[RobertN]

This thread gets more and more interesting...

From the sounds of this work, it is kind of the equivilant of two good tuneups on a gas engine ie plugs wires rotor cap ect.

Wonder how a diesel would sound with a Cherry Bomb from Kragens/Checker auto /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I agree, 3/4 and 1-tons are so even now, it's more a matter of preference, ergo, style, ect, than anything(except Dodge HAS to get a better auto)

For noise, I have never understood why they could not be made queiter(this coming from a Harley rider!). Mine is really loud, and that's the engine not the exhaust. What did they do to make them all quieter? I wish my Kubota was quieter too. After hours in the seat, the drone is loudish(I wear ear protection to save what was not damaged 20 years ago by loud Journey, Edie Money, AC/DC, Hank Jr!)

 

[RobertN]

Richard,
Could the pump be tweaked for a bit more power while it is being rebuilt? Would larger injectors improve performance, or just throw fuel away?

I asked my tractor guy about tweaking the pump on my 19hp Kubota; he siad he could, but the gain would be minimal.

 

[JATO_RaT]

Robert, yes the pump for my old 7.3L can have the fuel delivery increased. In fact the man from ATS said that if I was going to add a turbo to be sure and tell them and they will adjust the fuel delivery appropriately. Check out diamonddiesel.com out of West Sac, they sell turbos for just about everything including Kubota.