Water Glass

tat2z1969 · Jun 6, 2006

I started this thread since the subject of water glass was on the edge of hijacking another thread.

3rrl:
I know the effect quite well, but it has its advantages really.
In marine racing there is a problem called flash cooling, this happens when a racing boat starts to build heat and the water weather fresh or salt is diverted to the cooling system or heat exchanger, when this happens it can freeze the valves in their guides from flash cooling,(temp change to fast). If this was a boat site I wouldn't post this because it would tick some racers off (trade secrets).
Water glass (sodium silicate) is used in marine racing engines to produce a more even cooling effect, thus no flash valve freeze. Diesels used in marine apps have a similar problem but a little different, some like Perkins, Hino, Mitzu, Isuzu, old detroits, Volvo and more., is this, the rate that the sea water passes thru a system is to fast for the engine WITH Anti freeze in the heat exchanger for the heat to make a good transfer, so to over come this the options are run straight water in the exchanger(no one wants to do water because of cavitation and electrolysis) or run a dose of sodium silicate thru the system and refill with anti freeze and have better heat transfer.
For years every 318 or 238 Detroit Diesel we rebuilt got a dose of water glass, the wet liners always leaked if we didn't use water glass, it was a real problem with Detroits and we have ran it in many other brand engines with no ill effect.
I am glad you know about water glass and have seen it work in other system types.

tat2z1969 · Jun 6, 2006

I started this thread since the subject of water glass was on the edge of hijacking another thread.

3rrl:
I know the effect quite well, but it has its advantages really.
In marine racing there is a problem called flash cooling, this happens when a racing boat starts to build heat and the water weather fresh or salt is diverted to the cooling system or heat exchanger, when this happens it can freeze the valves in their guides from flash cooling,(temp change to fast). If this was a boat site I wouldn't post this because it would tick some racers off (trade secrets).
Water glass (sodium silicate) is used in marine racing engines to produce a more even cooling effect, thus no flash valve freeze. Diesels used in marine apps have a similar problem but a little different, some like Perkins, Hino, Mitzu, Isuzu, old detroits, Volvo and more., is this, the rate that the sea water passes thru a system is to fast for the engine WITH Anti freeze in the heat exchanger for the heat to make a good transfer, so to over come this the options are run straight water in the exchanger(no one wants to do water because of cavitation and electrolysis) or run a dose of sodium silicate thru the system and refill with anti freeze and have better heat transfer.
For years every 318 or 238 Detroit Diesel we rebuilt got a dose of water glass, the wet liners always leaked if we didn't use water glass, it was a real problem with Detroits and we have ran it in many other brand engines with no ill effect.
I am glad you know about water glass and have seen it work in other system types.

3RRL · Jun 8, 2006

Hi Jim,
I'm sure glad that you have so much experience with diesels and racing engines. It's interesting to hear the use of sodium silicate in special applications, and as I stated before, I don't have any experience running it through a cooling radiator system.

I certainly don't doubt that introducing sodium silicate into the cooling systems of these engines makes them perform better, but my point was that it affects the thermal conductivity of the sytem, dulling it in comparison to it's naked stage. This does NOT mean it is bad for the engine, as I stated before. It just means the cooling system will not respond as sharply to heat or cooling introduced...and that was my point. If the reduced abilility to heat or cool does not make as much difference as it does in my industry, then it can be beneficial instead of detrimental, as you point out in your example.

I have plenty of experience with the product and it's effects from knowledge and usage in my industry. Therefore, I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page understanding the term of "thermal conductivity" or "heat transfer" as I was referring to in the other thread. That is, the ability to transfer heat (or cool) and that adding sodium silicate as a liner (which it becomes) reduces the thermal conductivity of the parent material it is used in because infact, it has poor heat transfer properties.

Thermal Conductivity:
"It is defined as the quantity of heat, Q, transmitted in time t through a thickness L, in a direction normal to a surface of area A, due to a temperature difference T, under steady state conditions and when the heat transfer is dependent only on the temperature gradient.

thermal conductivity = heat flow rate × distance / (area × temperature difference)"

That quote is from
THIS PAGE which also has a chart showing the thermal conductivity of some common elements. Please note where silica and air are on the chart and although not specified, sodium which is present in some elements listed. They all have poor thermal conductivy or "heat transfer" in comparison to steels (metals).

It makes sense that it's use reduces the speed of temperature change to eliminate this problem ( In marine racing there is a problem called flash cooling, this happens when a racing boat starts to build heat and the water weather fresh or salt is diverted to the cooling system or heat exchanger, when this happens it can freeze the valves in their guides from flash cooling,(temp change to fast).) because of the "insulating effect of sodium silicate, thus reducing the (temp change too fast).

( Water glass (sodium silicate) is used in marine racing engines to produce a more even cooling effect, thus no flash valve freeze. Diesels used in marine apps have a similar problem but a little different, some like Perkins, Hino, Mitzu, Isuzu, old detroits, Volvo and more., is this, the rate that the sea water passes thru a system is to fast for the engine WITH Anti freeze in the heat exchanger for the heat to make a good transfer, so to over come this the options are run straight water in the exchanger(no one wants to do water because of cavitation and electrolysis) or run a dose of sodium silicate thru the system and refill with anti freeze and have better heat transfer.)

This also makes sense because now the water passages are coated uniformly reducing the "flash" heating/cooling of the metals, joints and various connections with varying thermal conductivities in those systems you mention. They are in fact "insulated" equally, allowing them to interact and respond as a single consistant and uniform system instead of the radical change in temperatures, allowing in this case better performance. However, I don't think the system has better "heat transfer" with the coating on it. Another reason I even posted on the other thread was because it was mentioned that Barrs sticks to everythig in the radiator sytem, and this stuff does too.

In summary, my post is not to disagree with your usage in radiator systems, but to clear up exactly what sodium silicate does to the system and what it's properties are.

3RRL · Jun 8, 2006

Hi Jim,
I'm sure glad that you have so much experience with diesels and racing engines. It's interesting to hear the use of sodium silicate in special applications, and as I stated before, I don't have any experience running it through a cooling radiator system.

I certainly don't doubt that introducing sodium silicate into the cooling systems of these engines makes them perform better, but my point was that it affects the thermal conductivity of the sytem, dulling it in comparison to it's naked stage. This does NOT mean it is bad for the engine, as I stated before. It just means the cooling system will not respond as sharply to heat or cooling introduced...and that was my point. If the reduced abilility to heat or cool does not make as much difference as it does in my industry, then it can be beneficial instead of detrimental, as you point out in your example.

I have plenty of experience with the product and it's effects from knowledge and usage in my industry. Therefore, I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page understanding the term of "thermal conductivity" or "heat transfer" as I was referring to in the other thread. That is, the ability to transfer heat (or cool) and that adding sodium silicate as a liner (which it becomes) reduces the thermal conductivity of the parent material it is used in because infact, it has poor heat transfer properties.

Thermal Conductivity:
"It is defined as the quantity of heat, Q, transmitted in time t through a thickness L, in a direction normal to a surface of area A, due to a temperature difference T, under steady state conditions and when the heat transfer is dependent only on the temperature gradient.

thermal conductivity = heat flow rate × distance / (area × temperature difference)"

That quote is from
THIS PAGE which also has a chart showing the thermal conductivity of some common elements. Please note where silica and air are on the chart and although not specified, sodium which is present in some elements listed. They all have poor thermal conductivy or "heat transfer" in comparison to steels (metals).

It makes sense that it's use reduces the speed of temperature change to eliminate this problem ( In marine racing there is a problem called flash cooling, this happens when a racing boat starts to build heat and the water weather fresh or salt is diverted to the cooling system or heat exchanger, when this happens it can freeze the valves in their guides from flash cooling,(temp change to fast).) because of the "insulating effect of sodium silicate, thus reducing the (temp change too fast).

( Water glass (sodium silicate) is used in marine racing engines to produce a more even cooling effect, thus no flash valve freeze. Diesels used in marine apps have a similar problem but a little different, some like Perkins, Hino, Mitzu, Isuzu, old detroits, Volvo and more., is this, the rate that the sea water passes thru a system is to fast for the engine WITH Anti freeze in the heat exchanger for the heat to make a good transfer, so to over come this the options are run straight water in the exchanger(no one wants to do water because of cavitation and electrolysis) or run a dose of sodium silicate thru the system and refill with anti freeze and have better heat transfer.)

This also makes sense because now the water passages are coated uniformly reducing the "flash" heating/cooling of the metals, joints and various connections with varying thermal conductivities in those systems you mention. They are in fact "insulated" equally, allowing them to interact and respond as a single consistant and uniform system instead of the radical change in temperatures, allowing in this case better performance. However, I don't think the system has better "heat transfer" with the coating on it. Another reason I even posted on the other thread was because it was mentioned that Barrs sticks to everythig in the radiator sytem, and this stuff does too.

In summary, my post is not to disagree with your usage in radiator systems, but to clear up exactly what sodium silicate does to the system and what it's properties are.

Hagar · Jun 8, 2006

You are talking about conduction through a material. In this situation you have fluid flow through essentially a piping network. So, you have convection to and from the fluid. In this case the reynolds number of the "pipe" affects the thermal transfer properties. The silicate either increases or decreases the reynolds number.

Hagar · Jun 8, 2006

You are talking about conduction through a material. In this situation you have fluid flow through essentially a piping network. So, you have convection to and from the fluid. In this case the reynolds number of the "pipe" affects the thermal transfer properties. The silicate either increases or decreases the reynolds number.

3RRL · Jun 8, 2006

Correct,
The reynolds number is also affected when the system changes diameters and has negative effects at higher flow rates causing tubulance in the system. The water glass helps "smooth out" these areas for more consistancy. However, any significant lining will affect reynolds number depending on the liner chosen and the thickness of it. The liners thermal conductivity properties now become a factor as you stated.

3RRL · Jun 8, 2006

Correct,
The reynolds number is also affected when the system changes diameters and has negative effects at higher flow rates causing tubulance in the system. The water glass helps "smooth out" these areas for more consistancy. However, any significant lining will affect reynolds number depending on the liner chosen and the thickness of it. The liners thermal conductivity properties now become a factor as you stated.