Welding and brake cleaner- not

   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #1  

sdef

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I am a neophyte welder (MIG and steel) and have been using brake cleaner (unknown if chlorinated or not) for my standard degreasing as I have been using most of my life. Works great and I do not have to touch the chemicals with potential absorption into the skin. However, found out last night on a TBN welding post how bad this can be with welding. Thanks K0ua. I have been reading on TBN and other Internet welding sites concerning this issue and have decided to be safe and not use it at all for welding cleaning- chlorinated or not.

I have yet to find a mention of a replacement pressurized can of a safe(er) welding degreaser I can purchase and would rather not use acetone or any other chemical cleaner that needs to be applied or removed by hand. In a past life I used to be a commercial building and equipment painter, applied red lead, etc. and worked with all kinds of nasty chemicals and coatings. I highly prefer not to touch cleaning chemicals nor breathe them due to asthma.

I have seen a reference to spray electronics cleaner. Any suggestions?

Thanks.
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #2  
I am a neophyte welder (MIG and steel) and have been using brake cleaner (unknown if chlorinated or not) for my standard degreasing as I have been using most of my life. Works great and I do not have to touch the chemicals with potential absorption into the skin. However, found out last night on a TBN welding post how bad this can be with welding. Thanks K0ua. I have been reading on TBN and other Internet welding sites concerning this issue and have decided to be safe and not use it at all for welding cleaning- chlorinated or not.

I have yet to find a mention of a replacement pressurized can of a safe(er) welding degreaser I can purchase and would rather not use acetone or any other chemical cleaner that needs to be applied or removed by hand. In a past life I used to be a commercial building and equipment painter, applied red lead, etc. and worked with all kinds of nasty chemicals and coatings. I highly prefer not to touch cleaning chemicals nor breathe them due to asthma.

I have seen a reference to spray electronics cleaner. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Acetone is in wide use. I have seen tri-cloro- ethelene in some electronics cleaners. I would not use it.
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #3  
This was published in American Iron Magazine in the August 2009 issue.

Please read and pass it on.

Brake Cleaner = Phosgene Gas

By Steve 'brewdude' Garn

Yep, I thought this time I was a goner! How simple it was to get in trouble. Please take the time to read this and pass it on. After time we see and read many warning labels that we no longer heed. We buy chemicals and sprays at a local parts house and think to ourselves how can this be so bad health wise if we use it, I am buying it over the counter? So, this is how my story starts.

So I had a rush job welding 4 diesel semi tanks to patch that were pitted from road salt corrosion. Normally I spray a little carb cleaner, wipe it off, light the acetylene torch and preheat to get rid of any solvents. The gas station close to the shop was out of carb cleaner so I picked up a can of brake cleaner and went thru my regular routine. I even had the shop door open and the exhaust fan on. I started TIG welding (3pm Thursday) and had no problem in the beginning. Then, I started welding across a really pitted area and came across a couple of drops of cleaner still left in a deep pit. When I came close a small puff of white smoke puffed and immediately almost passed out. I then made it outside and sat for a while in the fresh air. After about 10 minutes I went to the office at the house and sat at the computer to check the warnings on the brake cleaner can when my whole left side started shaking for about 10-15 minutes. The can said ‘Vapors may decompose to harmful or fatal corrosive gases such as hydrogen chloride and possibly phosgene.



After reading about Hydrogen Chloride and then started researching phosgene. The chemical in the brake cleaner is Tetrachloroethylene. When this chemical is exposed with excessive heat and argon (used in MIG and TIG welding) it also produces phosgene.

Some Phosgene facts. Google Phosgene and read more!

It can be fatal with a dose as little as 4 parts per million.

Symptoms can be delayed from 6-48 hours after exposure.

There is NO antidote for Phosgene.

Long term effects can be chronic bronchitis and emphysema.





My breathing still was hard. So I called my wife in town (20 mins. away) and she said to call the ambulance which I didn't do. I waited at home for another hour and felt a little better so I decided to drive into town and meet my wife for supper and also living way out in the country brought me closer to the hospital in case I felt worse. The chlorine taste and smell in my nose and mouth was still very strong but went out later for pizza and then went to watch a basketball game. I felt a little better until I went outside after the game into the fresh air and then the smell and taste of chlorine almost overwhelmed me. I still went home hoping time would make me feel better.
About midnight (Thursday) I started coughing, my chest started hurting but thought that this would pass after a nights sleep. The next day (Friday)symptoms got worse and kidneys started hurting so I drank a bunch of liquids and cranberry juice. For 4 days pissed a lot of clear fluid with no smell. On Saturday I was really in a lot of pain. On Sunday I felt a little better and went to a friend’s house to watch the superbowl game. When I came home I felt very weak and tired. Monday I still was about the same. Tuesday I felt a little better and went into the shop for a couple of hours. Piss was very dark and a lot of smell this day. Still couldn't crap. Wednesday felt pretty good and I worked for about 5 hours. Thursday was even better day so I decided I would drive to Cincy with Chad to the VTwin expo on Friday. I felt okay but was very tired and weak. That Saturday I went out with friends but I didn’t feel quite right. I felt crappy on Sunday and left the expo about 2pm. The trip home was 375 miles and arrived home about 10pm that night feeling very tired. My wife made the comment that I looked awful (some home greeting). At midnight I lost all balance, was dazed, confused and could hardly talk so I then went to the Emergency room. My symptoms were Oxygen level low, sugar out of control, vertigo and I was hurting badly in my entire chest. They admitted me and put me in the ICU. They said my kidneys had probably shut down for those 4 days, my lungs were damaged so I had to be on oxygen and that I would have to be on insulin to keep my sugar in check. The doctor and neurologist called CDC to try to figure out what to do since there is no antidote for phosgene. Basically to try to rest and hope it gets better. After CT, MRI, EKGs, EEG and several other blood tests it looked like at this time there was no permanent damage. The EEG was taken because of the shaking earlier of my left side was a seizure caused by the chemicals. The EEG determined that there was no permanent damage. But the MRI showed fluid in sinuses and a build up of fluids near the brain. The gas scarred up my sinuses and then became infected causing these fluids. The 3 doctors I saw said I was really lucky to make it.
Now it has been 4 weeks. Another Doctor who specializes in toxology is now seeing me. He thinks I may have emphysema and chronic bronchitis. So at this time I am on nasal medicine and an inhaler. My sinuses are severely scarred and nose smell nerves are damaged. I still have that awful chlorine taste and smell. I am also going to ear, nose throat Dr on Thursday. I will also know later on any pancreas damage from the blood tests that I had taken. The insulin that I was taking had little effect on sugar and I can't keep it in control. So we are trying a different approach with Lantos (long lasting insulin) and other medicines. Sleeping is off and on and I will have a sleep test next Tuesday. I am feeling somewhat better but still very tired. This will go on for a while but I have full faith that all will be fine after time.



On some forums some suggest using a cleaner without this chemical. Other chemicals I found in other sprays in my shop include, xylene, toluene, methylene chloride, ketones, pentane, cyclohexanes, heptane, methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), methanol, tetrahydrofuran and petroleum napththa. There are actually more but you get my point, right? All the chemicals listed above have heath issues! So check your sprays and know the health hazards and their correct use.

Chris Maida has called and checked up on me several times. He said it is a shame I went thru this ordeal. But, I disagree. If it saves someone an illness or a death it is worth going thru this if this is what it takes.

Please read labels and warnings. Look up the chemicals you use. Also keep these sites and phone numbers nearby.

American Association of Poison Control Centers Phone # 1-800-222-1222

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Your local hospital phone #




Thanks to American Iron Magazine to publishing this!
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #4  
Good point - it's a sticky at welding web.

As much as I hate stickies, I can readily understand that few would realize the danger of welding and brake cleaner.

Does anyone know how we could get it a sticky here?
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #5  
I have TIG welded over a lot of different degreasers in my lifetime but never experienced anything like that. I sure hope Steve recovers completely at some point.
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #6  
Always, Always refer to the MSDS. Those things are mandatory now for good reason and reveal most if not all the required information to handle a chemical product safely or make an informed decision to purchase the product, or seek out an alternative.

All you have to do is google "MSDS" and the product name to find the information MSDS = Material Safety Data Sheets
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #7  
I always use acetone or laquor thinner (sp?) for degreasing, but find that even when left to dry, enamel behaves funny when sprayed on.

Last night I saw a video about how someone was killed when welding castors onto a 45 gallon drum that had contained acetone. The drum had been washed out and even (I believe) open on the one end, but upside down.

Then there was the scrap dealer in Hanoi that cut into a cylinder, recently (20 Mar). That's a video to see!

It's scary, what can hurt or kill you!
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #8  
I use mineral spirits to degrease material when I need to but mostly, I just leave the grease on since I don't paint most of my work.

It's a pain wiping it on and off but if you want to actually remove the grease, short of an industrial caustic bath in a tank, I don't think there are really any other options.
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not
  • Thread Starter
#9  
K0ua: Yep, I saw that article and a couple other references to it this morning when I was doing Internet searches. Seems to be a popular reference.

newberry: Agree wholeheartedly. We get so used to doing certain things in our lives and sometimes forget that safe processes for one use, may not be safe for all uses.

I spent a better part of today researching this issue from a safety standpoint and a brake cleaner chemical replacement standpoint. I used to really liked carb cleaner and some years back went to brake cleaner as my standard heavy duty degreaser on appropriate surfaces. So I started searching for a one-to-one brake cleaner replacement and found nothing. And could not find a pressurized can of acetone. Then moved on to a far down the list second choice of acetone in a squeeze bottle. Priced a lot of different options but could not find one type I was comfortable with that I felt would not leak.

I just got back from the 100 mile round trip to the farm where my welding equipment is located, to check on the brake cleaner can contents. And while there identified a welding cleaner in a pressurized can. Contents: Acetone, Heptane and Carbon dioxide. Did an Internet search for all three and did not find any warnings for these ingredients and welding. If someone else can find a credible source with negative data- please let me know. BTW, it is my can of CRC Brakleen, Brake Parts Cleaner, 50 state formula, NON-CHLORINATED. Text straight off the label.
 
   / Welding and brake cleaner- not #10  
In my early life (1950s) working the refrigeration trade we knew all about Phosgene Gas. It was a by product of silver brazing copper in the presence of chlorinated refrigerants. Very dangerous as the OP discovered. I spent two weeks in the hospital one time from a serious exposure. I had many of the symptoms the OP had. Doctors diagnosed as pneumonia as my lungs filled up with fluid. (Side issue in my military life and training for war gases; phosgene was part of that and the symptoms were drowning in your own body fluid.)

Because of the diagnoses I was denied workman's comp as not work related. Three doctors would not admit they were wrong even after I related all the above info to them. Workman's comp would not even discuss it with me.

55 years later I do not have any residual effects I know of. So I pray the OP has the same end result.

Moral: know what you are working with and take the proper precautions and PPE requirements. Lets work safe guys and gals and live a long life.

Ron
 

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