What 'size class' older machine for.. irregular ~12-24" rock

[rice_harvester]

I'm closing on a piece of raw farm/industrial acreage which will easily 'justify' buying the older 'homestead type' (1 big project then occasional use for the next 25 years) tractor/backhoe OR excavator that i've always wanted. eventually, the plan would be to put a pole barn up, with lots of grading and huge piles of material etc etc to move as well. no need to bring up hiring or rentals; i was a diesel mechanic previously so i like owning /working on my own equipment, diy type all-around, & already fully committed to buying something--just haven't found the right one.

i know that for example my current 5500-6000lb wheeled skidsteer with a 56" tooth bucket - will honestly really struggle at--(even being able to scoop from a pile)- pushing/scooping/grading--the type of large rock material that the vast majority of this big project would entail; large irregular rock and rip rap. plus broken concrete/asphalt mix, all fairly large and irregular about 12-30" max size.

I started keeping my eyes out for (ideally) 8k-12k lbs sized excavators, but haven't found anything regionally that i could justify as a 'good to great deal' (yet)-- especially the low end under/around say $15k (would be nice but not a requirement)..
So i'm thinking about broadening my search to include the well-loved 580/680ck & similar types backhoes upto around 14-18k lbs max. not enclosed. A large backhoe would be parked and only really used there, whereas the 8k-12k lb machine could fit nicely on my current 16k gn or even the 14k tilt. i wouldn't ever plan on hauling things around myself with larger than 350/550 tow rig, going forward.
So then the thought goes; how capable is a smaller (and yes more expensive) 4x4 tractor loader backhoe, around 10-12k lbs?

-mini excavator 7-12k lbs (machine weight), ?
-TLB say 9-12k lbs, 4wd, 90s-2000's kubota or john deer for example , ?
-larger backhoe 14-18k lbs, like case 580ck or similar from any brand, say 1980s ,more likely to be 2wd ?
-mini articulated wheel loader (just throwing it in the mix; an older swinger, waldron, case w4 or japanese wheel loader say 7-8k lbs always looked liked very cool loaders)

since these older machines are quite different from the more recent ones i've personally/occasionally run on jobs or rental etc in the past -
your thoughts , experience, & recommendation would be very greatly appreciated.

 

[4570Man]

I’ve owned 2 full size John Deere backhoes, a 410 and a 310 as well as a Kubota M59. I’ve replaced all of those with a KX-040 which is a touch smaller than the excavator you wanted. The 40 is a little digging beast. The 40 blows the M59 out of the water. The 40 is probably 30 percent stronger than the M59, the 40 build quality is a lot better. The 40 was designed to be ragged on every day by construction workers. The M59 claims that title but it’s not really there. It’s closer to being a tractor than a construction tool. The 40 is much faster hydraulics than the M59, the pilot controls are a lot better than the backhoe has and not sitting directly behind the boom leads to a lot better visibility and being able to drive the excavator from the work station is obviously better. Overall the 40 does way more work and leaves the operator more comfortable than the M59. The full size hoes outclass the 40 by almost double in weight and hp. If the job involves digging stumps the brute force of the backhoe will win. If the job was digging a basement the 3x bigger bucket on the backhoe would still probably win. But budget oriented backhoes typically don’t have thumbs or quick attach bucket and the controls probably aren’t as precise as they once were. The mini excavator gains a lot of ground in production with better efficiency apposed to just being bigger. If you brought in an 80 class excavator to really compete with the hoes it would smoke the backhoes as bad as the 40 does the M59. Overall I’d say you would be better off to keep looking for an excavator.

 

[D&D]

i know that for example my current 5500-6000lb wheeled skidsteer with a 56" tooth bucket - will honestly really struggle at--(even being able to scoop from a pile)- pushing/scooping/grading--the type of large rock material that the vast majority of this big project would entail; large irregular rock and rip rap. plus broken concrete/asphalt mix, all fairly large and irregular about 12-30" max size..

The equipment you have mentioned all pretty much have a std 24” bucket. Are you going to be happy moving 1 or 2 pieces at a time?

 

[rice_harvester]

The equipment you have mentioned all pretty much have a std 24” bucket.

not exactly d&d: a 9000lb-12,000 excavator could use a (2nd) 36" bucket, the last 7-8k i rented did fine with a 30" for example. And to explain further, on the larger 24-30" rocks; i'm talking max size with the avg. rock/piece much closer to 14" for example.. Also excavator would have a blade (used for 'bulldozing' to move piles) as well. An excavator would be paired with an existing f550 dump truck or other appropriate 2nd machine if material needed to be moved further..

and of course- tractor/backhoe would have the loader on the other end, with a 60-80" bucket. what i'm thinking about in that scenario ("backhoe") is;

enough tractor weight, inertia & traction: to dig in and get a bite with the odd/large chunks, allowing a "full" ~6ft+ scoop of large material from a pile- with the tractor loader end.

i "think" a ~15,000lb case 580ck 2wd could do it based on my about 1hr of use 20years ago. but i'm not sure even if the 580ck would scoop it well, or spin wheels, dig ruts, struggle a bit with the task.

Basically; i don't quite know what size 'regular tractor loader' would struggle to get a bite/scoop for tough to dig into large/rough/irregular rock or similar material. *not digging rock from the ground, but scraping from an above ground pile or similar

thank you so much 4570man, the kx040 (9-10k) i've actually rented before: very, very nice & mindblowing step up from a 7k excavator. i would (ideally) dial in on an excavator wet loaded machine weight w/ bucket right at or below 10-10,500lb or 12,000-12.5k , just so that i can utilize the payload of my current trailer/s. but since they say always dream/buy bigger, know i wouldn't be able to turn down a good 14,000lb either

if i find the right deal that is, who knows-- decent older excavators local fsbo seem to be gone/sold right away and auctions are also still trending pretty high regionally.

yet i know i could make do with the 8-9k size excavator no-problem on this type of project. Overall i'm talking mainly evenings and weekends etc etc so ultimate efficiency (vs a much larger excavator) isn't going to be the deciding factor.

 

[Sportsman762]

If your projects entail digging only an excavator is the way to go. If your needing to move the material then go with a backhoe. A 580 sized backhoe will outclass your small skidsteer in its ability to move the irregular rocks and debris you describe. I would stick with a full sized hoe as they will handle the abuse the irregular rocks will dish out. Also they are more affordable then the compact or midi backhoes. Case 580/680 or Ford 555/655 backhoes are what I would look for. Parts are affordable and available for these machines. Some of the older Ford 555's had shallow loader buckets that might be less than desirable for you. As with all multi purpose machines a backhoe does everything OK. A wheel loader is a better material mover, and an excavator is a better digger.

 

[rice_harvester]

well, long term w/ a 'transportable' excavator or a mid sized tractor/backhoe (under ~12,500lbs), I could easily save on 3-5+ machine rentals a year(moving it myself to help extended family not work/jobsites) vs the larger 15,000lb-18,000 backhoe which i wouldn't ever pay to transport, (nor would be able to drive on road the case 580+ sized between places around here).

so if the kubota m59 sized, or 1 size up, compact , midi, 10,000+ lb tractor loader backhoe, lets say i optimize it with weight kit, tooth bar and fluid filled tires- will the loader end be up to the task of 'scooping and grading large rock'? if so, or even if 'maybe' - i will certainly consider the option a little more seriously (before i buy an excavator) and hopefully try to get time on this size & type of machine , perhaps.

Uses: yes there would be digging of foundations & similar projects, digging a basement, so not only for big rock piles, pushing small trees over up to 20", stumps up to mid size, lots of grading of the large material (which the excavator option could handle), not a whole lot of shuffling the large material around very far, of course minor trenching and drainage often comes up, building/improving roads & access, spreading gravel, and things like hard to get rocks/boulders and tough post holes. lifting heavy things. .. once you have a machine (of either of these types) you find uses for it

 

[paulsharvey]

To be contrarian, just cause that's the way I am; it sounds like you need a hoe and a loader, probably as separate machines. If you can track down a JD-544H, you basically have the peak of wheel loaders, before they got too much added BS added to them; should be approaching 20-25 years old now, and maybe getting down in price. I think the hoe is less important, anything from a 5000# machine on up will do what you need.

The smaller TLB, I'm thinking JD-110, the hoe had plenty of digging power, but everyone I know found the loader just lacking in the ability to really push into a pile of mixed material and get a full bucket.

I have used a JD-310 TLB to do everything you described except the trees. A 20" tree can put up a heck of a fight at times.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, a Very important part of this; we are moving rock/asphalt ect, but are we moving 1000 ft or are we moving 300 ft? Are we loading this into trucks to haul off? Our basement, can we spread and waste that material close to the basement, or do we need to haul that several hundred yards? If we can get aways will spreading things out, not moving far, a JD-310 sized TLB will do the job, if a bit slowly; but when we start hauling a significant distance, it's nice to have a hoe for digging/breaking up that pile, and a separate loader to move them

 

[paulsharvey]

If we go with a true TLB, often the cities have old 2wd TLBs, because they are doing a lot of road running, and less true site development. These old 2wd machines are less desirable for farmers, contractors, ect, so they can be a Lot cheaper than a comparable 4wd machine.

 

[D&D]

not exactly d&d: a 9000lb-12,000 excavator could use a (2nd) 36" bucket, the last 7-8k i rented did fine with a 30" for example. And to explain further, on the larger 24-30" rocks; i'm talking max size with the avg. rock/piece much closer to 14" for example.. Also excavator would have a blade (used for 'bulldozing' to move piles) as well. An excavator would be paired with an existing f550 dump truck or other appropriate 2nd machine if material needed to be moved further..

i know that for example my current 5500-6000lb wheeled skidsteer with a 56" tooth bucket - will honestly really struggle at--(even being able to scoop from a pile)- pushing/scooping/grading--the type of large rock material that the vast majority of this big project would entail; large irregular rock and rip rap. plus broken concrete/asphalt mix, all fairly large and irregular about 12-30" max size.

guess I misread your words. Good luck with your projects.