Wiring a Sub Panel

[Dougryan]

Hi,
I'd like to add a sub panel in my basement to run a couple of curcuits to my garage and one or two extra circuits to my basement. Problem is, the main box is in a finished part of the basement and there is no easy way to run a new line from there to the unfinished part.

However... I have replaced the electric dryer and electric stove with gas units, so I have to 30 amp lines already run very close to where I would need them. Problem is, they are both 3 wire lines (need 4 for the sub (2 hot, ground, neutral).

Question: Can I use two wires from one line for the hots and two wires from the other line for the neutral and ground? Seems to me that it would be safe. Any issues?

Thanks,
Doug

 

[rambler]

I think that is not allowed because it is very confusing to the next electrician coming along?

--->Paul

 

[kenmac]

I don't see a problem . As long as they are the correct size & marked as such

 

[KennyG]

I don't like non-standard wiring because of the danger of future confusion. You could just run the existing circuits on if you've got some way to jumper the ground back to a ground wire on another circuit. I don't think there is any requirement that the ground path run with the hot and common lines. Of course, if you need ground fault protected circuits, you would have to abandon one side of the 220 circuits you now have but you could just terminate and insulate it in the junction box and go on with a 110 v service. If you need ground fault and only two new circuits, you could avoid the cost and complication of subpanel. Also, you might want to extend with only 20 amp circuits and use #12 wire, but you would have to change the breakers in that case.

 

[aczlan]

Do you need 220V at this subpanel?
What if you used 2 separate sub panels and just ran 110V to each one, or ran one as a 110V subpanel and one as a 220V welder outlet??
You have 3 wires which are all you need for a 110V sub panel and you can get 30 amp single pole breakers... Easier for the next person to understand it that way.

Aaron Z

 

[Dougryan]

aczlan,
No, I don't need 220 at the sub panel. I will only run 110 lines from there.
Can you point me to a diagram or example of a 110 sub panel?

Thinking a little more...
So get rid of the 2 pole (30amp 220) breakers and get single pole 30 amp 110 breakers. Then use each 3 wire line for a small sub panel... I like it, one for the basement and one for the garage

Thanks.

 

[aczlan]

aczlan,
No, I don't need 220 at the sub panel. I will only run 110 lines from there.
Can you point me to a diagram or example of a 110 sub panel?

How many breakers do you need on each panel? I would get something like: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000H5WMSQ with 2 tandem single pole breakers (such as http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002YSOMA/ or http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00002NB37/ ), then I would wire a jumper (with the same size wire as your feed wire) from one leg to the other inside the breaker panel. and mark the panel as 110V ONLY. That will give you 4 circuits out of that box.
Here is more or less what I am talking about:

You will need to add a ground block as that panel doesn't have one, but that isn't a big deal.

Thinking a little more...
So get rid of the 2 pole (30amp 220) breakers and get single pole 30 amp 110 breakers. Then use each 3 wire line for a small sub panel... I like it, one for the basement and one for the garage

Exactly.

 

[Johnp33]

I just looked at my dryer and it is a 4 wire, but that does not matter if you have 220 x 30 amp you get a panel wire it in and you can run lots of circuits off of that one panel for the basement and one panel for the garage.
You could run 4 of 15 amp circuits at the same time off each set-up. That is a lot of power, There are very few times you would ever get that type of load.

 

[wrooster]

Hi,
I'd like to add a sub panel in my basement to run a couple of curcuits to my garage and one or two extra circuits to my basement.

Some details are needed...
This new subpanel is how many amps?
The garage is attached or detached?
Do you need 240Vac at the subpanel?

However... I have replaced the electric dryer and electric stove with gas units, so I have to 30 amp lines already run very close to where I would need them. Problem is, they are both 3 wire lines (need 4 for the sub (2 hot, ground, neutral).

Correct, you will need 4 wires for any split-phase 240Vac-capable subpanel.

Question: Can I use two wires from one line for the hots and two wires from the other line for the neutral and ground? Seems to me that it would be safe. Any issues?

In general this is a very bad idea. There are provisions in the NEC for taking this approach -- especially with respect to paralleling conductors for high ampacity applications -- but having the hots separated from the neutral and ground in a residential application? I have to read some more of the NEC.

Wrooster

 

[Dougryan]

Thanks for all of the feedback.

No, I don't need 220v at the sub panel.
The garage is attached.
I don't have the new sub panel yet, I will buy the correct one once I have a plan.

I was looking at my wiring over the weekend and found the curcuit for the range is a 40amp running over #6 wire.

Here's the subpanel I'm looking at:
Description says it has a neutral bar and a ground bar (I will make sure they can be separated).
70 amps, 2 slots, 4 circuits, single phase.
I'm thinking:
One in the garage with a 30A feed to run one 15A for a fridge and one 20A for tools.
One for the basement with a 40A feed to run two 15A for lights and small tools and one 20A for the table saw and drill press (not at the same time).

70 Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit BR Main Lug Loadcenter Includes Ground Bar-BR24L70SGP at The Home Depot

Not quite ready to pull the trigger, but getting more comfortable with the idea.
Thanks again for all of the feedback. My research continues.
Doug