rdln
Veteran Member
I would love to help those folks out....which way did they come in?
Your chance to help out
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Chuck52
Veteran Member
I don't know Wingnut. Maybe it's just my liberal penchant for wanting to blame someone else, but it really does look like some of the Enron executives and at least one guy in the accounting firm actually may have broken some laws. You sure are right about how many of us got to thinking the market would just keep going up, and the dot.com balloon was amazing. However, at least the real numbers most of those companies put out were truthful....that is, they may have claimed the future was bright, but they still reported that they were losing money at the present. Too many people believed the wishful thinking even while seeing the miserable performance reports. In the Enron case, the numbers were jiggled. They lied. Their accountant lied. People bought their stock based on lies. When you buy a new car, you check it out, but even then you depend a great deal on the truth of what's on that window sticker. The Enron folks falsified the numbers in the reports that even the experts depend on to evaluate a stock.
Chuck
Chuck
MikePA
Super Moderator
Just this morning I heard on the news that Gov. Davis is trying to back out of the long term (10 years?) contract he signed for electricity during the crisis. He agreed to pay up to $159/unit of measure (kilowatt/megawatt?) and the current price is closer to $30/unit. The companies are refusing to negotiate and I don't blame them. Both parties went into this with their eyes open and lawyers at their sides. Just because the market has changed doesn't give either party the right to change the deal. That only works with professional sports people! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
This is a prime example of why government should stay out of anything having to do with the free markets. I realize there has to be oversite in some areas like utilities, but CA politicians made a royal mess of this and now are trying to lay blame anywhere but at their own doorstep.
All this Enron and campaign finance reform is nothing but grandstanding. As George Will put it, since government is involved in business, why are we surprised when business attempts to influence policy? Oh what a tangled web we weave when gov't gets involved in anything!
This is a prime example of why government should stay out of anything having to do with the free markets. I realize there has to be oversite in some areas like utilities, but CA politicians made a royal mess of this and now are trying to lay blame anywhere but at their own doorstep.
All this Enron and campaign finance reform is nothing but grandstanding. As George Will put it, since government is involved in business, why are we surprised when business attempts to influence policy? Oh what a tangled web we weave when gov't gets involved in anything!
blurrybill
Gold Member
Ditto, Mike. It's still true: government is best that governs least. Nice to know your position -- and mentioned George Will to boot!
Bill
Bill
Steelfan
Platinum Member
I feel the same about government as a lot of you, gentlemen, but I've seen locally how companies do on their own. We've got greedy businessmen who put American people out of work only to take it to some other country. And why not it's free enterprise. What about the poor guy who supports his family with that job? Now you know who is paying of that the people of this fine nation who work. So you have to like it or not, but I've come to the conclusion, that the American worker one way or the other pays for everything that happens in this world. The American businessman for the most part don't give a crap about anyone but "bottom line" And the government is not going to help at all. Kent
Wingnut
Veteran Member
Chuck,
I have to be careful here ... if I keep talking to you liberals ... they may take away my "crotchety old small c conservative" licence.
I do not disagree that there was some hanky-panky at Enron ... and I have no doubt that letting the coyotes audit the chicken coop (I have no love for Anderson!) was a no-no .... but it was all done according to the wonderful government rules. They'd been doing it for how many years? Avoiding taxes?... sort of reminds me of the fact that everything in West Viginia is named after Mr. Pork Barrel - the "honorable" great white Byrde. All those pork barrel activities were legal ... yes ... moral ... well, maybe to the people in WVa who got the rest of us to pay for them ...
Nor do I agree with the fact that Enron (as well as Global Crossing and a whole lotta other companies) mistaed earnings. Completely illegal and the accountants, executives involved and their government overseers should all go to jail ... (darn, except that I hate paying for jailtime ... I much prefer chaingangs ... see I'm a real conservative).
However, that said ... how do you explain the fact that so many people bought shares, at super inflated prices, on anything to do with the internet ,,, when the companies were reporting huge losses every year? Wise investing?
(note ... my share values have gone down due to the general depression caused by all this ... but they'll spring back because they're in nothing but blue chips and bonds ... I'm not a gambler).
Finally ... experts judging stocks? The experts who vary from "hold" to strong buy and wouldn't say "sell" if you were holding a Second-Amendment-legal gun to their head. Depending on someone else to point you at free money ... well, just give it away to charity ... it makes you feel better and it's tax deductible.
I have to be careful here ... if I keep talking to you liberals ... they may take away my "crotchety old small c conservative" licence.
I do not disagree that there was some hanky-panky at Enron ... and I have no doubt that letting the coyotes audit the chicken coop (I have no love for Anderson!) was a no-no .... but it was all done according to the wonderful government rules. They'd been doing it for how many years? Avoiding taxes?... sort of reminds me of the fact that everything in West Viginia is named after Mr. Pork Barrel - the "honorable" great white Byrde. All those pork barrel activities were legal ... yes ... moral ... well, maybe to the people in WVa who got the rest of us to pay for them ...
Nor do I agree with the fact that Enron (as well as Global Crossing and a whole lotta other companies) mistaed earnings. Completely illegal and the accountants, executives involved and their government overseers should all go to jail ... (darn, except that I hate paying for jailtime ... I much prefer chaingangs ... see I'm a real conservative).
However, that said ... how do you explain the fact that so many people bought shares, at super inflated prices, on anything to do with the internet ,,, when the companies were reporting huge losses every year? Wise investing?
(note ... my share values have gone down due to the general depression caused by all this ... but they'll spring back because they're in nothing but blue chips and bonds ... I'm not a gambler).
Finally ... experts judging stocks? The experts who vary from "hold" to strong buy and wouldn't say "sell" if you were holding a Second-Amendment-legal gun to their head. Depending on someone else to point you at free money ... well, just give it away to charity ... it makes you feel better and it's tax deductible.
Wingnut
Veteran Member
Kent ... not to get too argumentative here ... but just to throw a little perspective (well a different perspective):
Greedy businessmen? Is this a bad thing? When you own shares in the company, would you rather they be greedy (making you dividends) or stupid and losing money?
Now why would they want to take the work to another country? Hmm ... golly, not because a janitor at GM makes $105,000 per year, surely (no ... not making it up ... was locally reported since he donates a great deal of it to black charities).
The American worker, one way or another, pays. Agreed. Now ... if we could stop the greed of the American Worker who sees the American Businessman being greedy and therefore wants a greater share ...
Does the machinest at American Airlines worry about whether the higher wages they demand will affect the ticket prices? Or disadvantage some fliers?
Does the nurse worry about whether her (sorry, or his) demands for higher wages ... and strike to get them ... affect the health of the American consumer.
Does the average teacher really give a fig about the well being of the children when they go on strike for more pay and greater control over their job and more days off for "preparation"?
Do any of the greedy American workers (yes, I'm one of them) worry about the consumer, the tax base, the cost iof tea in Moravia or anything else .. when they see a chance to get more money themselves?
I think most of us worry only about number one until that pink slip arrives in the mail and then we wonder how they can zap our job.
The American businessman, for the most part, doesn't give a crap about anything but the "bottom line" ... because if that line is below zero (in the red, in other words) he loses his business and desn't evn have unemployment insurance to fall back on - athough he's been making payments for his employees.
And ... just to confuse you ... I'm not a manager (have been -didn't like the personnel problems) ... just a "skilled knowledge" worker who gets raises and bonuses because he works O/T every day (unpaid) and gives a darn about doing the job the best it possibly can (i.e. I'll be the last one out the door because I've made myself invaluable). In other words, I've made it very hard for my employer to outsource my job or move it to another country ... because I deliver - always - more than I'm paid to deliver. Yeah ... because i'm greedy ... and understand economics.
Oh ... and I resent, very much, the government taking larger and larger chunks of my paycheck to support themselves and others who don't work as hard or smart.
Greedy businessmen? Is this a bad thing? When you own shares in the company, would you rather they be greedy (making you dividends) or stupid and losing money?
Now why would they want to take the work to another country? Hmm ... golly, not because a janitor at GM makes $105,000 per year, surely (no ... not making it up ... was locally reported since he donates a great deal of it to black charities).
The American worker, one way or another, pays. Agreed. Now ... if we could stop the greed of the American Worker who sees the American Businessman being greedy and therefore wants a greater share ...
Does the machinest at American Airlines worry about whether the higher wages they demand will affect the ticket prices? Or disadvantage some fliers?
Does the nurse worry about whether her (sorry, or his) demands for higher wages ... and strike to get them ... affect the health of the American consumer.
Does the average teacher really give a fig about the well being of the children when they go on strike for more pay and greater control over their job and more days off for "preparation"?
Do any of the greedy American workers (yes, I'm one of them) worry about the consumer, the tax base, the cost iof tea in Moravia or anything else .. when they see a chance to get more money themselves?
I think most of us worry only about number one until that pink slip arrives in the mail and then we wonder how they can zap our job.
The American businessman, for the most part, doesn't give a crap about anything but the "bottom line" ... because if that line is below zero (in the red, in other words) he loses his business and desn't evn have unemployment insurance to fall back on - athough he's been making payments for his employees.
And ... just to confuse you ... I'm not a manager (have been -didn't like the personnel problems) ... just a "skilled knowledge" worker who gets raises and bonuses because he works O/T every day (unpaid) and gives a darn about doing the job the best it possibly can (i.e. I'll be the last one out the door because I've made myself invaluable). In other words, I've made it very hard for my employer to outsource my job or move it to another country ... because I deliver - always - more than I'm paid to deliver. Yeah ... because i'm greedy ... and understand economics.
Oh ... and I resent, very much, the government taking larger and larger chunks of my paycheck to support themselves and others who don't work as hard or smart.
Chuck52
Veteran Member
Wingnut,
Apparently we agree that some Enron executives are likely to have broken laws. I also agree with you that folks who lost money because they invested in the dot.com balloon stocks don't merit much sympathy. My point was that at least most of the dot.coms told the truth about their <font color=red>current</font color=red> earnings, even while they exaggerated their future earnings, while Enron gave falsified numbers. I guess it is true that I am ultimately reponsible for my own investments, but I choose to invest in a reputable mutual fund because I think it is likely that the managers will do a better job than I in researching the very large number of companies available for investments. My concern with the Enron case is in part due to the way that company distorted the process. Even folks who try to research any company they might think about investing in have to have some faith in the numbers they read, otherwise how can you even define a "blue chip" stock?
I'm not sure what the "greedy businessman" thing is about, BTW. Perhaps Kent was referring to the new breed of high level executives who come in to a position with golden parachutes and have no particular interest in the success of the company?
Chuck
Apparently we agree that some Enron executives are likely to have broken laws. I also agree with you that folks who lost money because they invested in the dot.com balloon stocks don't merit much sympathy. My point was that at least most of the dot.coms told the truth about their <font color=red>current</font color=red> earnings, even while they exaggerated their future earnings, while Enron gave falsified numbers. I guess it is true that I am ultimately reponsible for my own investments, but I choose to invest in a reputable mutual fund because I think it is likely that the managers will do a better job than I in researching the very large number of companies available for investments. My concern with the Enron case is in part due to the way that company distorted the process. Even folks who try to research any company they might think about investing in have to have some faith in the numbers they read, otherwise how can you even define a "blue chip" stock?
I'm not sure what the "greedy businessman" thing is about, BTW. Perhaps Kent was referring to the new breed of high level executives who come in to a position with golden parachutes and have no particular interest in the success of the company?
Chuck
Wingnut
Veteran Member
Arghhh ... we agree on some things .... gosh, I hope no one's looking ... I'll lose my Rabid Right licence!
I guess I judge so-called blue chips the same old way they've been judged in the past ... earnings per share, dividends, etc.
That's the problem I have with Dot-Coms and companies like Microsoft ... no dividends. I like that tangible proof that the company is making money and paying it's stockholders. Right now I only get about $300 a quarter in dividends ... but that's better than I make in interest on my savings!
I hope to heck the one lesson that we get out of Enron (and Global Crossing) is that if we demand that outside auditors get a look at the books, we get auditors that are NOT paid for by the auditee .... talk about typical government stupidity!
Greedy businessmen .... makes me think of "Atlas Shrugged" ... Ayn Rand must be giggling in her grave.
Wing(less)Nut
I guess I judge so-called blue chips the same old way they've been judged in the past ... earnings per share, dividends, etc.
That's the problem I have with Dot-Coms and companies like Microsoft ... no dividends. I like that tangible proof that the company is making money and paying it's stockholders. Right now I only get about $300 a quarter in dividends ... but that's better than I make in interest on my savings!
I hope to heck the one lesson that we get out of Enron (and Global Crossing) is that if we demand that outside auditors get a look at the books, we get auditors that are NOT paid for by the auditee .... talk about typical government stupidity!
Greedy businessmen .... makes me think of "Atlas Shrugged" ... Ayn Rand must be giggling in her grave.
Wing(less)Nut
Steelfan
Platinum Member
I stand corrected. No Greedy Businessmen in America. I apologize. Kent