New clutch installed and wont dis-engage the engine

Ok the long story is under a different thread but under the "All Other Brands" forum but looking for a broader audience to help with this. So the full story is here:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/all-other-brands/209541-pasquali-988-clutch-issue-4.html

But the short of it is, the clutch stopped working, I over adjusted the clutch cable in an effort to get it to dis-engage the engine and it ended up bending the fingers on the pressure plate.

So now, I have a new clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing installed. I adjusted the fingers on the pressure plate as the manual said (20mm) off of the plate surface and clutch pedal adjusted so the throw out bearing is 3mm off of the fingers. So put all together and it will not dis-engage the engine. (Hmm same as before)

My though was there is not enough movement from the pedal to move the throw out bearing into the fingers far enough. Ive made a few modifications to extend the travel and now the throw out bearing moves 9/16" an inch but still the clutch does not dis-engage the engine.

The pressure plate is the 3 finger design. My question is "typically how much movement of the fingers is required to release the clutch?"

Second, to save a lot of work to test this I am only bolting the motor up to the bell housing and connecting /adjusting the clutch up. Then I have someone hold the clutch down with the tranny in gear and I turn the crankshaft nut on the front of the engine to see if it moves the tractor, which it does. My expectation is it would not move with the clutch pedal pushed in.

If you look at one of the last posts I made in the thread above you will see some pictures. One item that concerns me is the distance the throw out bearing has to be just to begin to touch the fingers is quite a ways, and then when the pedal is fully depressed it looks like the throw out bearing is going to come right off of the guide pins that hold it in place.

I am considering doing what someone else suggested and adjust the fingers on the pressure plate to stand up more and be closer to the throw out bearing so it starts its contact earlier in the movement of the forks that push it. I would of course have to re-adjust the clutch pedal cable so the throw out bearing would be back further to start.

Any suggestions? winter is coming and I really need the tractor to move snow around!

Thanks

~ Phil

Hi! I think your problem is the pressure plate. (defective). The bearing and the pedal travel are correct for me. If only one arm or finger is too used bend or defective (can be too loose on pivot) You have inoperative clutch. Good luck! Oldmech

Hi OldMech thanks for the response. THe parts are all new and the fingers are tight on the pivot points so that specifically isnt the issue but how can I test/verify the pressure plate is not defective and working?

I was thinking of welding up a bracket of some sort to bolt to the motor flange and allow using a bolt with a plate on it to allow turning the bolt and moving the plate against the fingers until it releases the clutch. I havent done it yet cause it would be alot of effort, hoping for a better solution to verify the pressure plate is working.

~ Phil

Hi! I just want help you. I read your other tread. I Think may be Your clutch disk is too thick or the pressure plate is too tight or too thick and do not release the pressure on the disk clutch.(defective pressure plate) You must separate engine for check clearance with disk clutch. May be you can add some shims between the pressure plate and the flywheel for free the disk. Disk clutch must be come free when forks are depressed. Good luck ! Oldmech

Hi Oldmech thanks, I suspect there is an issue with the pressure plate but Ive been dreading taking it off as it took forever for me to get the clutch lined up so I could put the engine on. The clutch kit did not come with a centering tool, I just bought a universal one hopefully it works.

I am thinking of welding something up so I can push in on the fingers and see how much movement of the fingers it takes to release the clutch plate. I also am now suspecting I have the wrong pressure plate because of the distance the throw out bearing has to move before it even touches the fingers. IE if I undo the clutch cable the throw out bearing can move back about an inch (Will measure tonight) And when the throw out bearing is at its full extention it almost comes off of the guide pins.

If my test goes well adn the plate is OK then the issue is its too far away from the throw out bearing. Im thinking if thats the case maybe Ill see if a machine shop can well on additional surface onto the throw out bearing's center that the fingers get pressed on so the contact happens earlier what do you think?

~ Phil

Try this link, he had problems with new clutch.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/.../184375-clutch-failure-again-ford-1100-a.html

Russell

Hi Jones interesting read, seams like he had a similiar mystery issue. I have a question into where I got my parts if mine was new or reconditioned and also if its possible I got the wrong pressure plate, only reason I suspect this is the first throw out bearing I was sent was wrong and the distance the TO bearing has to be set to just start to touch the fingers it has used alot of the throw of the forks already.

Thanks for the thread.

~ Phi

Do you have the clutch disc facing the right way. Most are marked for flywheel side or pressure plate side.
Bill

Hi I literally removed the old one and placed the new one right in its place the same way. THe center piece is flush on one side and bludges on the other, granted maybe the original was on the wrong way as well. I have the motor off again so Ill re-check that. I thought when I first put it in there was no way it could fit the other way as the center piece that buldges out if facing toward the fly wheel would hit it.

~ Phil

Hi all OK I made some discoveries. I took the pressure plate off and did some checking and measuring.

First the clutch disk can only go in one way, wont fit flipped around.

Second, from the other thread Jones suggested, it looks like my new clutch disk is springy and compresses some, IE I can squeeze it in a vise whereas the old one will not compress.

Lastly I did some measuring for clearances, please remember this is my first time replacing a clutch so I may not use terms that are meaningful to you, if so ask to rediscribe it.

The well in the flywheel that the clutch disk goes in and the pressure plate is bolted to is 24.18mm deep.

The plate that moves on the pressure plate can be collapsed by the fingers 6.5mm.

The thickness of the pressure plate and the clutch disk that goes in the well is 28.85mm. Now subtracting the area that can all be squished into is 28.85 - 24.18 = 4.67mm Now the amount the PP can be compressed is 6.5mm - the 4.67mm = a 1.83mm of freeboard. Not a lot of room to me.

Now someone in the other thread I read suggested putting washers behind the pressure plate to give a bit more room to move. I did it just to see what it does and it makes the fingers stick out A LOT more. Even adjusting the fingers down till there is no more adjustment they would be hitting the throw out bearing. It would be pressing into the throw out (TO) bearing by default. Looking at the TO bearing there are two rings around the guide pins that prevents the TO bearing from going back further into the bell housing. I took that out and it would then work with the washers behind the pressure plate.

So another solution I think would be to use the old clutch disk, it is thinner and does not compress any. Right now I see these as my two options to pursue, any thoughts on what to do?

Thanks

~ Phil

What is this in? I have never heard of "Adjusting the fingers" normally it is just bolt the pressure plate to the flywheel. Don't use washers on a permanent install! Do you have pictures, they are worth a 1,000 words. How thick is the old clutch?

Hi its the clutch for a Pasquali 988.30 tractor. The fingers need to be adjusted to 20mm up off of the pressure plate surface per the manual which I did but to no avail. The clutch, pressure plate and TO bearing, and cable are all new. Yes I do have some pics but I cannot share them from work. If you look at a previous entry from me I think I have links to the pictures there.

So another person said to try adding washers behind the pressure plate to give some more room for the pressure plate to move and release off of the clutch disk in a different thread (shared in this discussion by someone else) for someone having the same issue.

Bottom line after taking measurements, there is less than 2mm of free space for the pressure plate to move off of the clutch disk and that requires the fingers to be fully pushing against them. I think there needs to be more free room for it to be pulled away from the clutch disk by the fingers. What is the negivite issue with putting washings behind the plate?

If that is a bad Idea then I think im going to put the original clutch disk in, its worn some and is thinner than the new one and doesnt compress.

~ Phil

jones6780 said:

What is this in? I have never heard of "Adjusting the fingers" normally it is just bolt the pressure plate to the flywheel. Don't use washers on a permanent install! Do you have pictures, they are worth a 1,000 words. How thick is the old clutch?

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This is something I have run into in automotive applications on rebuilt clutches the lining is sometimes thicker and sometimes they will drag until they burn in. I have been known to run down the road in 3rd gear at 20 mph and slip the heck out of them to clean them up.

I wouldn't add washers either imho that will weaken the PP but I might take a sander and sand the hair off of it and re-try it.

Disc is too thick. Probably a rebuilt with wrong material. Or just the wrong disc.
Joe H

Hi Guys thanks for your input, so the big issue is these parts come from Italy so it takes a long time to get parts and they are not cheap.

I can try scuffing the new clutch to take the rough edges off and also IF I was confident it would dis engage I can do the clutch slip thing to burn it in as you said but Im still at a loss as to how do I know I have the clutch adjusted to move enough to lift the plate and free the clutch disk without pushing it too far and bending the fingers....

~ Phil

Hi! I remember A long time ago. My boss order only a new clutch disk for 5-ton Ford truck The heavy duty one . Impossible to adjust the clutch Missing adjustment. Because if disk is more thick the fingers retracts and dont touch bearing . We fit a standard clutch disk and all was fine. The heavy duty disk ask for heavy duty pressure plate. Now the best is change disk and pressure plate assembly. But can be very expensive. May be your disk is too thick. You need some or good pressure on disk when you bolt the pressure plate on the flywheel. If no pressure or less your clutch can slip and can burnt very fast. I read your measurement and all look ok for me. Good luck! Oldmech

So right now from my measurements there is less that 2mm of room for the pressureplate to be moved by the fingers and lift off of the clutch disk and release it. Is that enough room? My real issue is adjusting so I can fully press the fingers down to lift the PP up that 2mm without pushing too hard and bending the fingers...

oldmech said:

Hi! I remember A long time ago. My boss order only a new clutch disk for 5-ton Ford truck The heavy duty one . Impossible to adjust the clutch Missing adjustment. Because if disk is more thick the fingers retracts and dont touch bearing . We fit a standard clutch disk and all was fine. The heavy duty disk ask for heavy duty pressure plate. Now the best is change disk and pressure plate assembly. But can be very expensive. May be your disk is too thick. You need some or good pressure on disk when you bolt the pressure plate on the flywheel. If no pressure or less your clutch can slip and can burnt very fast. I read your measurement and all look ok for me. Good luck! Oldmech

Click to expand...

If you could get your money back on the disc I would suggest trying the old disc and see if it releases with the new PP and if so and its useable like you said Id use it and probably wouldn't think twice about it. But with that said it makes me think there mismatched parts but Im just guessing.

This is a long shot, but years ago I installed a rebuilt transmission and a new clutch in a car and had a similar issue. It turned out that the end of the transmission input shaft had been bent slightly and was hanging up in the pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft.

OK I think I have it working, now when I push in on the clutch and manually turn the crank shaft while in gear the tractor doesn't move so I think im ready to hook it all up and fire it up.

What I did is several things tips/suggestions from several people, sorry I have a poor memory so cant remember specifically who supplied each idea.

1 - Scuffed the new clutch disk with sand paper to take the high spots off.
2 - Removed the blockers on the throw out bearing guide pins that kept the throw out bearing from moving further back to allow it to have a longer throw without coming off of the guide pins.
3 - Measured the distance from the throw out bearing surface to the bell housing mounting surface and then adjusted the fingers to be about 1/8" away from that, doing #2 and #3 allows the fingers stand up more and then allow more movement before becoming flat and not providing any more movement.
4 - Moved the clutch cable mounting location lower on the arm to get more movement out of it.

I am able to press all the way down on the clutch and not come up against either the hard stop of the clutch arm or having it get harder to press like the fingers have no more room to move and are bending.

I have to work the next couple of evening so I probable wont get to finish assembling it till Saturday to try firing it up.

Thanks for all your suggestions/help.

~ Phil