Air Filters??

[TripleR]

Yup ........ that's true ......


I would suspect that the porosity of the filter paper is probably what actually does it ......


Ahhhhh .... I don't think so ..... at least not on my B2910 .....

The inner filter (which is a screen) is designed to keep boulders and other large objects, such as your bathtub, lawnchairs, and kid's tricycle, out of the engine .... it just ain't gonna do a whole lot as far as dust (dirt mebbe .... if they are large clods .....)

And Kubota DOES NOT necessarily recommend changing the secondary every time you change the primary ....


Well, that might depend on which manufacturer you are talking about ......

But at any rate, they are in the business of selling air filters now aren't they ?


Might depend on how much air pressure you are using ...


Jeez .... what's your day job ..... parts manager for dealership ? .... or sales rep for a filter manufacturer ?

Internal combustion engine air filters can often go far, far longer than what is commonly believed (as a consequence of air filter manufacturer propaganda) - although in the case of tractors, which often operate in much dirtier environments - that's much less the case than with other over-the-road vehicles - as an example:

I have an '06 Dodge Sprinter (Mercedes) that gets driven over the road .... it's a diesel engine and has a filter minder .....

I've changed the air filter exactly twice since we bought it new ..... first time was at 123,000 miles ...... and the second time was at 271,000 miles .... neither time was the filter minder indicating a restriction and the vehicle was running fine (no loss of performance) .... the vehicle now 282,000+ miles on it.

Having said that, I do agree that equipment that operates in a "severe service" environment does need more care and maintenance than others do ....

Very good post.

 

[teg]

I can see the post as being over the top but informative ...and that's totally fine with me. The filters are cheap enough to not worry about it.

I was thinking people would think what I did was over the top :laughing:

 

[leonz]

UH HUH,


I worked undergrounfd in mining for 22 years as a mine laborer and journeyman mechanic.

the paper coating- yes

The safety element requires changing at every interval or dependent on operatiing conditions as the fine dirt load is only doubling in the safety element.

you can slice paper with an air knife or a pin point jet with a safety air nozzzle (low pressure)so thats a non starter because as it ages it becomes more brittle from heat due to friction from air entering the element.


Kubota simply purchases air filters/systems that fall within the engines operatining requirements/compartment sizecont-

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We had a herd of ELMAC Boss Buggys which were built/modified for coal use that had the three cylinder kubota engines with the the single element which were small 2 wheel drive Kubota farm tractors that were imported and modified installing catalytic converters, FOPS canopies and rear storage and seats behind the operator, as well as adding fold up seats for two more people up front on the added fenders, and a wider platform for the two seats which included a full fender over the front tires on both sides to allow the unit to carry 7 people which was the normal crew in a small coal section for example.
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Cont- which also fall prey to tier 2,3,4 diesel exhaust issuesand that mess which would not be an issue if water scrubbers were used AND MAINTAINED which is why they are not sold that much any more buut still availabe for after market use.


As imentioned before the tattle tale is not foolproof which has been my experience with diesel engines in underground and surface use.

The air filter industry has also manaufactured air filters and the precleaners to within a machines engine compartment or within easy piping distance.



They have forgotton one simple rule which is this:


The less restriction you have on the pressure gradient created by the intake air in Hg., the easier your engine works at lower fuel consumption rates to provide the torque required to do work-which is why I mention the oil bath intake air cleaners for aftermarket use a lot and the very large oil bath air cleaners for blowers and very large deisel engines with large engine platforms.


But they are building/designing a product to fill a need which is the 4 cycle internal combustion engine.

If water scrubbers were installed on gas lawn mowers-riders or pushers they would not emmit 4 times the air pollution a car or truck does as they are not considered a big polluter due to the engines smaller cubic inch displacement.


Kubota is not required to install catalytic converters on the diesels because they are nit required to so with the emmisions standards for tiers 1,2,3,4 because of the direct injection engines they use.

If they used an indirect injection engine they would be simpler to maintain and repair. If they used the Duetz design with the two and three cylinder air cooled engines they would not have radiator issues due to plugged screens and would have lots of room for an oil batrh air cleaner.

The reason the air filters are where they are is simply one of convenience as the small engines arew typically set in an operating box for the gen set or pump or thresher which was their original purpose and the size of the engine and its narrow width aloowed it to be used for other machines like walk behind sheeps foot rollers, vibrating rollers, portable screeners etc.



Another example is the L+M Mesabi radiator which has replacable core elements and allos allows beter cooling with out a radiator core which would save a lot of grief for the folks with chaff screens as they would not be needed-but the kubota engines are also victim of their success.

As the smaller engines were originally built for other purposes like pumps, gen sets, rice planters, threshers, compact track drive rice combines etc. they were used to fill a need for the compact tractor market and the CUT were built around the engines just like continuous miners are built from the bottom up.



The Donaldson inner air filter safety element cartidges I had to deal with were pleated paper with coatings and did clog and kill engines from dust or were so badly fouled they collapsed due to the pressure gradient created by the intake air streams effect onn the outer element which in turn collapsed the inner elelements.


And of course if they had installed oil baths ahead of the paper elements
which is done in high dust/trash environments the engines would have lasted longer but I was told to keep my mouth shut and I did not know anything.

Most if not all the early automobiles and trucks had oil bath air cleaners because the engines were within a stable platform being the car frame and they worked for years until they started making larger gas engines and diesel engines.

They would still be in use today if the engines had remained the same size and used diesel for the most part in my opinion.

 

[TripleR]

Very interesting thread.

 

[Egon]

Does anyone have some proper data on filter efficiency??

 

[rswyan]

I can see the post as being over the top but informative ....

Very - it contained some good info.

...and that's totally fine with me.

Yup - me too .....

I just didn't want the impression left - as a consequence of the poster being unfamiliar with what the secondary element actually is on certain Kubotas - that the secondary element on at least some Kubotas need to be changed every time the primary is changed.

For me, and perhaps many others, this would get unnecessarily expensive and is, quite franly, really just a waste of money - it gets you nothing.

My secondary screen is about $50 .... and after 960 hours, is in good shape.

FWIW:

123,000 miles ÷ 60 mph = 2,050 hours of operation

150,000 miles ÷ 60 mph = 2,500 hours of operation

The above are best case scenarios (in terms of hours, actual hours likely are significantly higher) - and do not include idling time (imagine living in cargo van for as much as a couple of months at a time .... often having to sit for days waiting on a load ...... and sometimes winding up in such places as Laredo or El Paso, TX ...... in July or August ..... with temps in the triple digits ..... :shocked

 

[rswyan]

UH HUH, I worked undergrounfd in mining for 22 years as a mine laborer and journeyman mechanic.

Well, I ain't gonna bore ya with my complete resume - but it does include some time "down under" ...... breathing a fair amount of scrubbed diesel exhaust (PG&E pumped storage hydro project, Lake Wishon, CA in the Sierras) ..... and owning an automotive engine rebuilding shop.

The safety element requires changing at every interval or dependent on operatiing conditions as the fine dirt load is only doubling in the safety element. <snip> The Donaldson inner air filter safety element cartidges I had to deal with were pleated paper with coatings and did clog and kill engines from dust or were so badly fouled - they collapsed due to the pressure gradient created by the intake air streams effect on the outer element which in turn collapsed the inner elelements.

You actually might want to have a look at the safety element that I'm talking about - it ain't paper - it's a wire screen.

It ain't a paper element like on some B&S that has an oiled foam primary on it.

Kubota simply purchases air filters/systems that fall within the engines operatining requirements/compartment

Oh ..... is that the way it works ?

Hmmm ...... most of the OEM manufacturers I'm familiar with (names you would know - like Ford, GM, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, GE, Case/NH, CAT, Deere) will quite spec and design (either in-house, have their suppliers do it) what they need and want their suppliers to produce that meets their specific requirements.

The air filter industry has also manaufactured air filters and the precleaners to within a machines engine compartment or within easy piping distance.

Yeah - but you can bet that a manufacturer - who has warranty obligations - is going to ensure that whatever they stick on there is at least going to be adequate to the task. To do otherwise would be foolish.

The less restriction you have on the pressure gradient created by the intake air in Hg., the easier your engine works at lower fuel consumption rates to provide the torque required to do work

It's always a trade-off: filter efficiency (which usually means more restriction, less porosity) vs. maintaining adequate flow for the engine.

Most folks often don't realize that a dirty air filter will actually filter better (up to a point, that point being where the filter collapses and is no longer filtering) than a clean one ....

which is why I mention the oil bath intake air cleaners for aftermarket use a lot and the very large oil bath air cleaners for blowers and very large deisel engines with large engine platforms.

What are you thoughts on bypass oil filtration ?

I had a bypass oil filter on that Sprinter at one point - ran the sump for over 50K miles on the same oil (just make up oil) ..... when I finally changed it out at 50K+, I had the oil tested of course, and Blackstone said still good ....

Thinking about sticking the bypass on the Kubota .....

And of course if they had installed oil baths ahead of the paper elements which is done in high dust/trash environments the engines would have lasted longer but I was told to keep my mouth shut and I did not know anything.

My guess is that you know quite alot (but I do also know, that at least in the case of my particular Kubota engine and it's secondary filter, that you are not familiar with it, specifically) ....... I'm finding the oil bath air filter info quite interesting - I was aware of them, but it's always nice to hear from someone with actual experience

 

[gwdixon]

OK, back to the reality of tractor ownership. Nobody I know changes air filters every 10 hours.

I blow out my air filters with compressed air until when they are held up to the sun no light comes through. Then they are replaced.

Usually the filters are tapped on the wheel to get rid of the loose stuff and then blown out from the inside first and finally the outside. Clouds of dust come off.

The inner filters (when used) have been blown out but there is never a speck of dust that comes off of them. As a result, I declare that my method works. :laughing:

BTW, the Kubota manual for the M7040 recommends periodically washing the air filter with water.

 

[leonz]

You had an oil centrifuge on the mercedes and removed it, WHY?

I am unsure if the kubota would have the speed for the centrifuge, the other issue is placement as they are typically mounted at the end of the indirect injection pump with a coupler that also attaches to the cooling blower for the duezt engines.

I know that Racor makes or did make an oil filter for very fine filtration at one time.

when filtration is reduced combustion air is reduced, and fuel is wasted


The folded felt air filters were an answer to a prayer for some engine builders adding huge amounts of surface area for filtration.


Are the head race and tail race tunnels for that mess still intact?

I have forgotten about the PGE projects but was that the one with pumped hydro storage up hill after going through the turbines or gravity down hill and discharge to waste.

the oil bath filters are the best ones and you can mount mutiple units together for engine intakes to clean the air it needs for combustion.


My link for oil bath air cleaners should still be here if you search for it.

the oxy catalyst scrubbers we had were no match for water scrubbers with thier efficiency because the shovels had to be left idling as they leaked too much air and the PTX purifiers were no better for the same reasons- they would never clean them with an oven to temperature with a catalyst oven to burn off the residue.

the use of the high sulphur fuels with the dry scrubbers was bad because of the sulphur and it created a continuos fog no matter how hot we ran them because we never cooked the pellets to clean them nor did we use an manomometer to determine the efficiency of the purifier beds in the scrubbers. nor did they check the PTX purifiers.


most if not all our engine issues came from low fresh air volume and poor air circulation which was always a huge issue and they are 17 miles out now with a booster fan set that is soon to reach its limits if it has not all ready.

 

[Skyco]

Please, Please dont blow them out dont blow them out!!!!!

You might want to tell Kubota they have it all wrong in their service manuals:laughing:
The BX24 workshop manual on page G-18 specifically says to blow out the filter with compressed air under 30 PSI and to replace it after every 6 cleanings
They even go on to say if oily to wash it in detergent, rinse well, dry it, and inspect it for damage.