Any Tractor Guys Into Sports Cars Too?

[Bob77064]

That thunder roadster would be fine to drive.

 

[xtn]

Was that you or your wife driving?
If it was you. you should have got off the track when the drops hit your windshield.
Since you didn't....stop whining.
You spun out because the track was wet, I can see you were trying to compensate for the water on the track and you failed. Cold wet track means bent sheet metal.
Since it's bent up....race it some more, only this time..... RACE IT TO WIN, NOT TO WRECK.

RACE IT OR GET OFF THE POT.....ER AH TRACK.....

I like it when the track is wet. You can learn finer nuances of car control at a lower speed.

N80, of course it's difficult to draw conclusions from a video alone. But I noticed your hands were very smooth all the while prior to the spin. This implies to me that you weren't having to make corrections and thus weren't driving near the limit of traction. So when you did find a limit it was a surprise.

Especially when it's wet, I like to almost constantly (at least near and in turns) make control inputs that will induce slip and then recover. This happens very fast in little repetitive spurts. If you're near the limit, these inputs won't have to be large ones.

You may have ridden with an instructor or someone else that you and your track friends refer to as 'handsy.' This is what he is doing. I know, I know, they preach that you should be smooth. They drill it into your head. But what you should realize once you're past an intermediate level is that 'smooth' applies to the path of the car, and that your inputs should be whatever is required to make that happen. Don't tell green students this yet.

So anyway, by constantly experimenting with the controls, by forcing a tiny bit of slip and recovery, you always know how far away a surprise would be. You take the surprise out of it. Of course that's within reason allowed by predictable conditions.

The first time you try this, do it in a slow, wet carousel turn that has clear runoff area. You'll notice this gives you conditions similar to a skid pad. Once you reach that steady state condition around the turn, try a quick but small tightening of the wheel followed immediately by a quick counter steer. If you were near the limit and you get it right, the tail should have stepped out for just a fraction of a second. Unless it just under steered.

Feel this out and get used to it. Also do the same thing with throttle control and throttle combined with steering. Eventually you can do it while trail braking into a turn.

Now slippind and recovering takes a little riin through a turn. Fast guys will train themselves with turn out points a couple feet inside the edge to aim for, and that way they've got a couple feet of wiggle room to squirm as they lay the power down.

Hope I haven't been talking down. Just trying to be informative to somebody I don't know. Good luck at your next event!

xtn (past hpde instructor)

 

[wroughtn_harv]

I think it was about 1959 when a reporter asked Stirling Moss what is was like to drive a Grand Prix race. He compared it to having the family sedan at sixty on ice.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

My first car was a 1968 TR4A IRS, bought it in January 1969 with money I had saved in Nam. It was brand new. It came with 590-15 nylons. Keep in mind VW's came with 560-15 nylons.

The original tires lasted 3000 miles and were bald. What I was proudest of was they were wore even, Jim Clark was famous for that.

What the TR taught me was the difference between a sports car and a regular car was what happened after the limit more than what happened before.

I raced a Yamaha 465 desert and various dirt track classes in California and Texas, street and hot stocks. The racing I enjoyed most was figure eights. Dirt racing with a right turn thrown in and oh yeah, the intersection.

A couple of months ago I climbed into a RZR and loaded it onto a custom truck bed I made. The client had been trying to get me to drive it for two months and I refused until that moment. WOT and sideways was introduced to the RZR. When the client left the adopted son looked over at me and asked, "just how old do you have to get to get that stuff out of your system?"

"I don't think you can" was my reply.

 

[xtn]

Wraughtn,

I got one of those kid sized RZRs for my boys. It's 170cc and seems to top out at 25-ish mph. But I figured out the right radius of turn to shoot for and then taught my ten year old how to get a bit of a power slide going by diving into the turn with brakes to lighten the rear end then turning too sharp and nailing the throttle at the same time and counter steering. We had a blast!

xtn

 

[N80]

I like it when the track is wet. You can learn finer nuances of car control at a lower speed.

I've also enjoyed it.....up until that very last lap.

This implies to me that you weren't having to make corrections and thus weren't driving near the limit of traction. So when you did find a limit it was a surprise.

You are exactly right. I was not pushing it at all. I had just watched a Miata do the exact same thing 2 laps before. As mentioned, I had been warned about not brushing the curb in the wet. In the dry I was 'jumping' them.........as I had been instructed to. I think I just had a lapse in attention/car control, brushed the curb with the left rear tire and probably had a tad too much throttle input. After that I did not have the talent to save it. It was like being on ice. No tire squeal, nothing. Once on the grass it was all over.

I know, I know, they preach that you should be smooth. They drill it into your head. But what you should realize once you're past an intermediate level is that 'smooth' applies to the path of the car, and that your inputs should be whatever is required to make that happen. Don't tell green students this yet.

I'm still very intermediate in this regard. I've ridden with plenty of fast drivers and watched the sharp, fast hand movements. I'm not there yet. Funny how a lot of the 'rules' don't apply once you get past a certain point, i.e. brake then turn. I have been trail braking for some time now.

The first time you try this, do it in a slow, wet carousel turn that has clear runoff area. You'll notice this gives you conditions similar to a skid pad. Once you reach that steady state condition around the turn, try a quick but small tightening of the wheel followed immediately by a quick counter steer. If you were near the limit and you get it right, the tail should have stepped out for just a fraction of a second. Unless it just under steered.

On my home track, CMP, I have gotten to that point to some extent. CMP has lots of runoff space which is reassuring.

Also do the same thing with throttle control and throttle combined with steering. Eventually you can do it while trail braking into a turn.

I have started to steer more with the throttle in the dry. In my car this is hard to do in the wet. The 350Z tends to step out rapidly in the wet under throttle (Hankook RS-3s not too good in wet either) but I have done it and corrected, especially at Roebling road which has lots of carousel like turns.

Hope I haven't been talking down. Just trying to be informative to somebody I don't know. Good luck at your next event!

xtn (past hpde instructor)

Not at all. I'm at the DE2/DE3 level now and very open to any instruction I can get. The video proves I need all I can get.

 

[xtn]

Something else I noticed is that your attempted steering correction was way too slow and meager. As soon as you felt the spin condition begin it should have been an immediate and intense counter steer. But a very brief one. You don't want it swinging back the other way.

And of course don't lift off the throttle! At least until it's a lost cause.

Re. the rear stepping out in the wet... I wonder if a bit of toe-in at the rear would tune a bit of that out. Does the 350Z have adjustable toe in the back? Of course it's not something you can dial out completely. But it might tame it slightly.

 

[N80]

As far as steering correction, from the second it stepped out I did not feel like it was recoverable. That is probably equal parts inexperience and slow reflexes. I can improve on the experience but at age 50 my eye hand-coordination is pretty much as good as it will ever be. At the time I distinctly remember being shocked at how fast it got loose. That part seemed to happen so fast....but from the time it got backwards it seemed to take for ever to hit. Kind of funny really.

But I have to say,when I slow the video down it looks to me like my reaction was pretty immediate. No doubt quicker and more would have been better....I just don't think I've got it in me. I'm still not sure why I've been able to correct it before when it was almost sideways but was completely ineffective this time. Live and learn I guess.

The Z has very little alignment adjustablility on any corner. No toe adjustment at all. It needs a lot more neg camber front and back. Upper control arms are a popular modification and are now being allowed in Spec Z to improve tire wear. I will probably make that mod as well as better anti-sway bars in the future.............but my budget for mods has been depleted a bit. :laughing: Roll bar, seats and harnesses are also on the list.

 

[RobertBrown]

.but my budget for mods has been depleted a bit. Roll bar, seats and harnesses are also on the list.

It's a very expensive hobby. There is no return on the investment at your level. I think your biggest issue was tires and weather. You were a victim of your tires.

I just don't think I've got it in me.

You were in second gear when you lost it? It looked to me like you saw the straight and you started to put your foot in it when you were at the fat part of the performance curve. You don't have a turbo...right?
Your tires were cold the track was wet. That was it. 10.3:1

 

[xtn]

It's a very expensive hobby. There is no return on the investment at your level. I think your biggest issue was tires and weather. You were a victim of your tires.

You were in second gear when you lost it? It looked to me like you saw the straight and you started to put your foot in it when you were at the fat part of the performance curve. You don't have a turbo...right?
Your tires were cold the track was wet. That was it. 10.3:1

It's not cheap. Compared to, say, playing horse shoes, there will probably be a higher proportion of high-income folks at the track. But there are those who run in old rusty Miatas (or the like) with a moderate budget. I know guys who spend more playing golf every year than I do at the track. The return on investment - when taken purely as a hobby of course - is that it's the most friggin fun hobby in the history of the universe! Okay maybe I'm slightly biased. But the only thing I ever found even remotely entertaining about golf was trying to make the golf cart do doughnuts while the other guys teed off.

N80... I won't recommend any one brand of harness over another, but I will recommend a twist release. I've got Scroth's button style release and regret it. Looks great, but turns out to be a slight pain. Oh, and I really like the hip straps to be the type that pull up and towards you from the sides to tighten, as opposed to the standard setup wherein you pull out and away from you from center. In this way you can kinda bicep curl those suckers down tight. It's just personal opinion of course, but I really like it.

xtn