Are you violating the law?

   / Are you violating the law? #21  
I agree, it also appears that "mich" in the article is maybe a dolt...and shouldn't be allowed to work on an 8235r if he can't pull up the codes on a machine like that, it's a very capable tractor in that regard. All of these articles seem to mention the same thing, the ability to look at codes...which can already be done. This is really about trying to allow non-trained ind the ability to re-program not trouble shoot. I am leaning towards the mfg side as I think about who may be working on my daughters new car with a fancy self braking system...I don't want an untrained ind to work on it.

Let's face it, what the owners really want to do is access the code, delete the emissions controls, re-flash the chip and move along, while on the other hand, Deere wants to maintain a lock on service provision and generation of income.
 
   / Are you violating the law? #22  
Deere owner does not want to modify to defeat pollution devices. Complaint is that with electronic failure, customer cannot perform simple repair to get his tractor going again such as if he had a simple rod through the block. Now for example, the customer might encounter a software bug that shuts the tractor down or limits its performance. There may babe several million lines of code involved and only one instruction error shuts him down. Now the customer wants access to this code so they can self-diagnose and tweak - but what if they mistakenly tweak the steering and every time you throttle up, the tractor turns hard right? Who is responsible for the car load of people you just pulled in front of and killed? Been there, done that, but in a static test with modified software, fortunately not on a highway where it caused an accident, but relating why the journalists on this story only push their side. Our Deeres are older, smaller than the one cited, a 2012 and 2007. Both will pop up fault codes that we can decipher from the Operator's Manuals, unlike our cars and trucks which give only a check engine light requiring a trip to the dealer to read.
 
   / Are you violating the law? #23  
And once again, MHarryE, I ask the question (or bring up the point) "So this is only John Deere?" All of the other tractor & self-propelled-implement OEMs are allowing access to their computers?

Plus, if you don't think that, given the chance, a lot of owners wouldn't modify or outright defeat pollution devices and/or safety devices then I remind you of the plethora of TBN threads asking advice of how to cheat the Operator-not-in-seat switch or RIO button.
 
   / Are you violating the law? #25  
For those of you unwilling or unable to actually put forth the effort to find out whether this is a targeted effort against Deere or exclusively domestic manufacturers or an effort to initiate an industry wide change, here is the link to the proposed Nebraska law which has been tabled.

http://nebraskalegislature.gov/FloorDocs/Current/PDF/Intro/LB1072.pdf

For those not wanting to bother to read it, here's a snip:

Equipment means digital electronic equipment or a part for such equipment originally manufactured for distribution and sale in the United States;

I don't see any direct reference to Deere.
 
   / Are you violating the law? #26  
Deere owner does not want to modify to defeat pollution devices.

Maybe not the particular owner in the article, but you can bet a bunch of the supporters of the movement do. This is not a one-man effort.
I really didn't think you were that naïve, Harry.
 
   / Are you violating the law? #27  
RickB, the proposed legislation then would be demanding that all of the OEMs give up their patents on software & control systems that they've developed. That's how I'm reading it, anyway. Patents have a lifespan so, eventually they'll expire and be cheaply available like the older vehicle diagnostic codes.

Patents are the least of the issues.

Patents expire in 20 years. At which point a machinist can look at a part, have a pretty good idea how it works, and make a new one.

Software is copyrighted (although that copyrighted software may contain some patented routines)...and current coporate-issued copyrights expire in 120 years. Nothing keeps Deere or any other manufacturer (of anything) from deciding in 20 years from deleting their source code.

The owner may have an implied license to use that software for the life of the vehicle, but if you computer gets zapped nothing says the manufacturer has to provide you a new copy after the warranty is up.

Nor do they have to provide the source code so if the computer itself is no longer manufactured that the software can be re-compiled to run on a newer generation of computers.

Just as a movie studio could burn every copy of a film they own if they don't want anyone else to ever see it again.

You also may run into issues of actual licenses for the software -- which may further restrict your use.

There was a time United Shoe and AT&T could get away with only leasing, or simply licensing your use of, their equipment and not sell you the physical gear. Give it another few decades, you may see the laws around software start to change.
 
   / Are you violating the law? #28  
I was referring to why Deere owners have publicly stated they want electronic access. Sure some want to remove pollution equipment - they don't realize what problems they will be getting into by doing it but it's their choice. They state that if their tractor breaks down, they want access to software to repair without waiting for, or paying the cost of, a dealer mechanic. Sure there are hackers who can break in and tweak software trying to defeat - I realize that. I was addressing the owners stated intent.

Companies, and I will refer to Caterpillar, make retrofit kits for used Tier 4 equipment going into lesser regulated countries. Part of this involves flashing in new engine software but other material changes are required. I can't remember the list, but it had to be done because so much of America's used equipment goes to third world countries. More so Japan where when they implement a emissions upgrade, customers have a limited time to replace their fleet. Even places like the UAE use their machines only a couple years, sow 4,000 hours, then peddle them off to the Iranians or African countries. All these machines need to have modifications available to make them work in lesser regulated countries or the customers looking for new product wold be locked out of their major channel for selling.

The major problem they will encounter is due to the Common Rail System. Fuel must be extremely clean in these high pressure systems. My Kubota L5740 has a low pressure indirect injection not too far from the system we had on our first diesel on the farm, a 1939 TD-6 International. That is how ancient those systems were. In fact my L5740 smokes just about as bad as that TD-6 even though the L5740 is Tier 4 interim. I believe the top possible injection pressure on my M135GX is 23,000 psi. A fine particle of dirt flowing through the system at that pressure causes much more damage than one at 1,400 psi.

I work with a lot of fellow farmers now that I am retired and have yet to find one on our area who wants to dump all their emissions equipment. They had qualms about buying, but every one has been pleased with their purchase. Now that us still a small segment of the population and in our area, nobody has tractors over 250 HP like the tractor cited. Maybe Deere has screwed up. Owners have been pleased with fuel economy, power, torque backup, and the like. They have not been pleased with the list price but everyone has been able to get tremendous discounts unheard of a few years back. 22% off lust us not unusual. But we find the same thing when we try to buy new equipment that does not have an engine. Our large round baler - at the end of last season we planned it to be gone but at this year's price, it got a rebuild instead. That is serious because it is one critical machine for which we do not have a backup. We were also going to get a new sprayer but the price increase for new blew us away so we found a used one we could rebuild. So the price factor - yes, it is there, but emissions is not the sole driver. The economy that crashed in 2007 - 2008 was such a drag on prices companies are now trying to recover.
 
   / Are you violating the law? #29  
For the most part I've been playing devil's advocate in these discussions. As I've said, I don't have a dog in the fight and there've been no grumblings about this down here in Aus that I've heard of. Mind you, ALL of our tractors & Self Propelled Implements are 'imports'.

So to take a 'long view - what if?' look at this, what are the implications if this legislation were successful? OK, 'honest' operators can now more readily work on their equipment like they used to do in the past. However there is the chance that 'dishonest' operators will start modifying their rigs and even cheat the annoying T4 pollution devices or safety restrictions imposed on them by other government legislation/regulations.

Well, when they did this with road vehicles the various State/Provincial Governments set up annual emission-control certification requirements. Which you have to pay for on top of registration & licencing. Being that Ag equipment can't readily be driven to the Government's Facility for Official Testing (or Authorised facility) they'll most likely need mobile Inspectors.

From what I've read here on TBN, if your State/Province has RED diesel (again, something that was lobbied for and legislated) then a mobile Inspector can just come onto your property without permission and dip your fuel tanks to ensure that you've been honest. Hefty fines apply even if there's a trace of dye in a non-farm-use-only vehicle.

What kind of Pandora's Box is going to be opened, eh?
 
   / Are you violating the law? #30  
When DIY'ing is outlawed only outlaws will DIY.
 
 
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