Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase?

   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase?
  • Thread Starter
#11  
On the “back-side” of the lift pump, there will be either a roller or a plunger that rides on the pumps cam lobe..
Behind that will be a seal or oring.. u can just dunk/spray that area..
Okay I finally got around to removing lift pump. I just removed the (3) 10mm nuts from the lift pump flange and the pump came right off. As soon as I loosened those (3) nuts,
fluid started pouring out from the gap created by loosening the three 10mm nuts.

I assumed that the fluid was diesel fuel and that I had at last found how the fuel was getting into the crankcase. I collected the leaking fluid in a container until it was done draining. But it does not really smell like diesel fluid at all. It is a clean, thin somewhat oily fluid that smells more like an old oil paint or maybe an oil based wood preservative. I'm thinking maybe that fluid is the injector pump lubricant?? Does that sound correct?

The lift pump was still connected to the diesel fuel inlet and outlet hoses, so I opened the fuel bowl valve to see if diesel leaked out anywhere near the lift pump roller/plunger, but there was no fuel leak. I operated the manual plunger a few times but still could see no fuel leakage of any kind. Considering that make crankcase oil level rises at about 2 quarts per week due to this fuel leakage, is the any other possibility regarding the source of this fuel leak?

I still haven't done the air pressure test on the lift pump. That will be next.
 
   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase? #12  
The cam lobe always compress’s the roller or push rod slightly..
So when u pulled it away from the main pump, it changed position of the plunger rod.. possibly moving the rod to a good position where the seal can seal on the rod.??
If u don’t follow the diagnostic directions we can’t rule things out..
 
   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase?
  • Thread Starter
#13  
The cam lobe always compress’s the roller or push rod slightly..
So when u pulled it away from the main pump, it changed position of the plunger rod.. possibly moving the rod to a good position where the seal can seal on the rod.??
If u don’t follow the diagnostic directions we can’t rule things out..
Okay I had time to finish removing the fuel lines from lift pump today. Sorry for delay. Am hoping for tomorrow to do the air pressure application as you have instructed. I will try to send photo if possible.

Thanks much for all of your help!
 
   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase?
  • Thread Starter
#14  
The fuel injection pump on some engines are lubricated with oil from the engines pressure system. If that is your case you will have an oil line connected to the engine block, and another connected to the sump.
Thanks much Mr Rooks for reply.
I have the 25hp 3Cylinder Laidong engine. I don't believe there is a hose as you have described, but it does look possible to leak fuel from the injection pump into the sump from the place that Piper mentioned. Right now it seems the only way to find out is to change the injector pump unless you think a fuel injector can have a bad leak without noticeable misfire occurring. Perhaps this engine only running on two cylinders?
 
   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase?
  • Thread Starter
#15  
The cam lobe always compress’s the roller or push rod slightly..
So when u pulled it away from the main pump, it changed position of the plunger rod.. possibly moving the rod to a good position where the seal can seal on the rod.??
If u don’t follow the diagnostic directions we can’t rule things out..
Okay I finished the air testing. I completely sealed the outlet side of the lift pump, covered the whole mounting side of the lift pump with thick soapy water and applied
120 pounds of air to the inlet side of lift pump. After 12 attempts with lots of soapy water and lots of air pressure, not one bubble or leak of any kind was evident anywhere.
 
   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase?
  • Thread Starter
#16  
The fuel injection pump on some engines are lubricated with oil from the engines pressure system. If that is your case you will have an oil line connected to the engine block, and another connected to the sump.
As I recall, this injector pump requires oil to be added to the injection pump manually.
I think you can probably see the small dipstick on the injector pump in the photo I posted earlier.
 
   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase?
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Depending on what injector pump you have, it might be possible for a leak to get into the crankcase through the front timing gear housing.
Another possibility is an injector that is leaking and letting fuel wash down past the piston rings.
I can't think of any other places where diesel would get in, unless the "lift pump" is powered by the engine cam shaft and not part of the injector pump. Think old style car engine fuel pumps mounted to the block with an arm that rides on the cam. On my Jinma 284 the lift pump is mounted on the injection pump, not the block. When it failed internally it dumped diesel into the crankcase of the injector pump, which over flowed through the breather. Not the same thing as getting fuel into the engine block.
Post a picture of your fuel system so we can see exactly what is involved.
Thanks much for reply.
I'm starting to wonder if maybe is a leaking injector as you have mentioned above.
Do you know of a way to verify this? Is there a way I can test for leaky injector?
Or do I just have to replace one at a time until bad one is found?
 
   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase? #18  
Probably the easiest thing to do is pull all the injectors and take them to a diesel repair shop for testing. They can check the pressures, look for leaks and examine the spray pattern. They may need to know the make, model and year of the tractor and fuel injector pump.
As I understand it some injectors can be rebuilt but some can not. Availability of parts and labor prices may dictate it easier to just buy new injectors. I think that you can expect to pay about $100 for an injector.

For do it at home, you could buy one injector and replace #1. Then if that didn't fix the problem, move the old #1 to #2 and test again. If by the time you get all of them replaced, you should have eliminated the injectors as the problem.

If your IP pump has its own crankcase and lube sump, then the only way for diesel to get to the engine is through the front seal where it is connected to the timing gears. On my IP with separate crank lube, the lift pump was actuated by a plunger that ran off of a cam on the IP crank. This plunger was sealed by an o-ring, which in my opinion is a bad seal to use in a sliding operation. It should have been a lip seal of some sort. I couldn't keep seals in it no matter what material they were made from.

On this IP there was a fill port on the top with a mushroom shaped breather cap. There was a drain plug on the bottom and part way up the side there is a fitting with a 90 degree elbow that is the overflow tube. The crankcase of the IP holds about 4 ounces of oil. When the diesel leaked past the o-ring it filled up the sump of the IP. The problem was that it came from the factory with a rubber cap on the fitting so I didn't know it was over full. It wasn't until I changed the oil that I realized I got a lot more out than 4 ounces. After that, I fixed up an overflow bottle with a hose going to the fitting. I could monitor how much diesel was getting into the sump and how much it was diluting the oil.

Eventually I got tired of fighting with the o-rings, so I removed the lift pump and made a plate and gasket to cover the hole. I had an electric fuel pump on the shelf for another project so installed that and wired it to the on side of the key switch. That solved my over flowing sump problem for a long time.
Now, I am seeing some diesel in the sump oil again, it has to be the IP pump leaking internally as there is not other place for fuel to come from. The pump has 1000 hours on it and I guess I am not too surprised that it is starting to leak a little. For now I just keep an eye on it and change the sump oil at every engine oil change.

You are getting an exceptionally high amount of fuel into the engine so it must be a fairly serious leak. I would try to find a way to rig up an overflow bottle to the IP sump, even if it means putting a hose on fill port. The idea is to leave the sump open to atmospheric pressure so that any fuel that leaks into the sump can not pressurize it. This will also allow you to monitor the sump level easily.

If the sump is not pressurized the it is not likely to be able to push fuel past the input shaft seal at the timing gear. Doing this will let you see if the fuel is coming from the pump or internally, which would mean an injector, or maybe all of them.

Let me know if I was as clear as mud. Writing is harder than thinking...
 
   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase?
  • Thread Starter
#19  
Probably the easiest thing to do is pull all the injectors and take them to a diesel repair shop for testing. They can check the pressures, look for leaks and examine the spray pattern. They may need to know the make, model and year of the tractor and fuel injector pump.
As I understand it some injectors can be rebuilt but some can not. Availability of parts and labor prices may dictate it easier to just buy new injectors. I think that you can expect to pay about $100 for an injector.

For do it at home, you could buy one injector and replace #1. Then if that didn't fix the problem, move the old #1 to #2 and test again. If by the time you get all of them replaced, you should have eliminated the injectors as the problem.

If your IP pump has its own crankcase and lube sump, then the only way for diesel to get to the engine is through the front seal where it is connected to the timing gears. On my IP with separate crank lube, the lift pump was actuated by a plunger that ran off of a cam on the IP crank. This plunger was sealed by an o-ring, which in my opinion is a bad seal to use in a sliding operation. It should have been a lip seal of some sort. I couldn't keep seals in it no matter what material they were made from.

On this IP there was a fill port on the top with a mushroom shaped breather cap. There was a drain plug on the bottom and part way up the side there is a fitting with a 90 degree elbow that is the overflow tube. The crankcase of the IP holds about 4 ounces of oil. When the diesel leaked past the o-ring it filled up the sump of the IP. The problem was that it came from the factory with a rubber cap on the fitting so I didn't know it was over full. It wasn't until I changed the oil that I realized I got a lot more out than 4 ounces. After that, I fixed up an overflow bottle with a hose going to the fitting. I could monitor how much diesel was getting into the sump and how much it was diluting the oil.

Eventually I got tired of fighting with the o-rings, so I removed the lift pump and made a plate and gasket to cover the hole. I had an electric fuel pump on the shelf for another project so installed that and wired it to the on side of the key switch. That solved my over flowing sump problem for a long time.
Now, I am seeing some diesel in the sump oil again, it has to be the IP pump leaking internally as there is not other place for fuel to come from. The pump has 1000 hours on it and I guess I am not too surprised that it is starting to leak a little. For now I just keep an eye on it and change the sump oil at every engine oil change.

You are getting an exceptionally high amount of fuel into the engine so it must be a fairly serious leak. I would try to find a way to rig up an overflow bottle to the IP sump, even if it means putting a hose on fill port. The idea is to leave the sump open to atmospheric pressure so that any fuel that leaks into the sump can not pressurize it. This will also allow you to monitor the sump level easily.

If the sump is not pressurized the it is not likely to be able to push fuel past the input shaft seal at the timing gear. Doing this will let you see if the fuel is coming from the pump or internally, which would mean an injector, or maybe all of them.

Let me know if I was as clear as mud. Writing is harder than thinking...
Thanks much for all of the details Piper!!! I like the idea of an overflow bottle on the IP sump. You mentioned an "input shaft seal at the timing gear". I think that could very well be my problem also. Is that something you are going to try to replace in your
situation?
You have mentioned in your post above that you have replaced O-rings. So far the only O-ring I have seen is on the lift-pump mounting flange shown on one of the photos I've attached. If I do have an internal IP leak and am unable to repair, I would have to buy new one. But I have no idea where to find an IP like this one to purchase.
My alternative is to replace the whole engine assembly (which has new IP and lift-pump installed).
I have this new engine assembly sitting here in a wooden crate already. I just didn’t want to cannibalize it for spare parts. I would rather leave it complete and install it that way. Do these photos look like your IP?
 

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   / Diesel fuel Injector pump leaking into crankcase? #20  
Here are your lift pump components.
 

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