Redbug
Veteran Member
Hey DocHeb that's pretty good! How'd you do that? Not by hand did you?
Dog food for thought
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DocHeb
Veteran Member
Cut to Excel, hand entered the numbers into a separate column, sorted on that - pasted values ... 3 minutes maybe?
Maybe I will comment a bit on the scoring - interesting to note that perservative such as BHT are considered -10 point dangerous, but then there is no scoring evaluation about high protein meat products going bad because there are no preservatives. Balance, everything in life needs balance.
jdbower
Platinum Member
Another thing to consider is that what we as humans think of as "good food" doesn't necessarily translate to our animal friends. We're omnivores with a very varied diet, a lack of nutrition isn't an issue when you have the dietary choices we have. However if you only choose the highest rated dog food and it's missing even a single essential nutrient Fido could be malnourished. I'd recommend giving your dog a bit of variety, and try to pay attention if he feels the need to eat outside his ordinary diet as often cravings are simply the body's way of indicating that a nutrient is missing from his diet.
We're taught that lean meat is good, but in a human diet fats are abundant. In the real world carnivores don't neatly butcher their kills, strip away the fat and carefully cook the resulting lean meats - they tuck right into the organs to get their necessary fatty acids and eat the meat as filler more than anything else. Since this includes eating the digestive system (without carefully cleaning it out and stuffing it with spiced meats like we humans do - I could use some brats!) ironically those looking for a more "natural" diet should look for the dreaded "animal digest" ingredient to provide the nutrition in this organ meat and hopefully some of the necessary intestinal flora to aid in your dog's digestion.
The fear of BHT is also an interesting one. In addition to Doc's astute comments above regarding weighing the benefits of preservatives as well as the negative, BHT/BHA seems like a promising treatment for some diseases including, believe it or not, cancer (but don't take that website's word for it, that's what we call "anecdotal evidence" which is scientifically useless unless backed by a good study).
Pretty much with any sort of complex system such as a living animal we need to realize that the science is still evolving. Unless you start seeing the term "double blind" and repeated studies of significant size confirming the same thing (this is different than reading multiple fear-mongering sites); many times you'll find that the results are often just someone's predisposition towards some aspect of life they find objectionable.
We're taught that lean meat is good, but in a human diet fats are abundant. In the real world carnivores don't neatly butcher their kills, strip away the fat and carefully cook the resulting lean meats - they tuck right into the organs to get their necessary fatty acids and eat the meat as filler more than anything else. Since this includes eating the digestive system (without carefully cleaning it out and stuffing it with spiced meats like we humans do - I could use some brats!) ironically those looking for a more "natural" diet should look for the dreaded "animal digest" ingredient to provide the nutrition in this organ meat and hopefully some of the necessary intestinal flora to aid in your dog's digestion.
The fear of BHT is also an interesting one. In addition to Doc's astute comments above regarding weighing the benefits of preservatives as well as the negative, BHT/BHA seems like a promising treatment for some diseases including, believe it or not, cancer (but don't take that website's word for it, that's what we call "anecdotal evidence" which is scientifically useless unless backed by a good study).
Pretty much with any sort of complex system such as a living animal we need to realize that the science is still evolving. Unless you start seeing the term "double blind" and repeated studies of significant size confirming the same thing (this is different than reading multiple fear-mongering sites); many times you'll find that the results are often just someone's predisposition towards some aspect of life they find objectionable.
[
We're taught that lean meat is good, but in a human diet fats are abundant. In the real world carnivores don't neatly butcher their kills, strip away the fat and carefully cook the resulting lean meats - they tuck right into the organs to get their necessary fatty acids and eat the meat as filler more than anything else. Since this includes eating the digestive system (without carefully cleaning it out and stuffing it with spiced meats like we humans do - I could use some brats!) ironically those looking for a more "natural" diet should look for the dreaded "animal digest" ingredient to provide the nutrition in this organ meat and hopefully some of the necessary intestinal flora to aid in your dog's digestion.
That might be fine if "animal byproducts" centralized on beef stock out in the field. Also, beef stock may not be the natural end product of animal byproducts. There are stories of dog food companies utilizing euthanized dogs and cats as food stuffs and I would most certainly not use what's in the entrails of these animals if indeed there is any truth to that. Also, again if given the choice, my act of "balancing" would include utilizing those foods using citrics, tocopherols, Rosemary extract and calcium carbonates as preservatives rather than bht and bha.
We're taught that lean meat is good, but in a human diet fats are abundant. In the real world carnivores don't neatly butcher their kills, strip away the fat and carefully cook the resulting lean meats - they tuck right into the organs to get their necessary fatty acids and eat the meat as filler more than anything else. Since this includes eating the digestive system (without carefully cleaning it out and stuffing it with spiced meats like we humans do - I could use some brats!) ironically those looking for a more "natural" diet should look for the dreaded "animal digest" ingredient to provide the nutrition in this organ meat and hopefully some of the necessary intestinal flora to aid in your dog's digestion.
That might be fine if "animal byproducts" centralized on beef stock out in the field. Also, beef stock may not be the natural end product of animal byproducts. There are stories of dog food companies utilizing euthanized dogs and cats as food stuffs and I would most certainly not use what's in the entrails of these animals if indeed there is any truth to that. Also, again if given the choice, my act of "balancing" would include utilizing those foods using citrics, tocopherols, Rosemary extract and calcium carbonates as preservatives rather than bht and bha.
Quote)I'd recommend giving your dog a bit of variety, and try to pay attention if he feels the need to eat outside his ordinary diet as often cravings are simply the body's way of indicating that a nutrient is missing from his diet.Current studies on humans show no association to food cravings relative to nutrient deficiencies. I know of no studies assembled for canines. We are in agreement about variety however. An interesting side note is that a couple of months before 3 of my dogs died of cancer, each one ate dirt. At the time I dismissed the act as another stupid thing dogs do but now I am giving it second thoughts.
Redbug
Veteran Member
Here's an interesting read from my favorite Shepherd forum. I was following up on what JimmyJ mentioned about dog food mfgs cheapening the ingredients. Possibly the Nutro I feed my dogs. It's long, but interesting...and credit goes to "Ocean" of the Germanshepherds.com forums.
"Whenever you purchase any pet food, consider what your dollars are paying for in each bag of dry food.
In general, whenever you buy from any of the 5 largest pet food manufacturers in the world, you are likely paying for Promotions and Advertising, Packaging and Place, with Product last in the list.
The 5 largest pet food manufacturers in the world, ranked in order of size are:
1. Mars Inc. whose brand names include Pedigree, Royal Canin, Nutro. Mars started as a chocolate bar company, and is today one of the largest chocolate and candy manufacturers in the world.
2. Nestle whose brandnames include Beneful, Purina, Proplan. Nestle of course has long been a chocolate bar and chocolate drink company and is now a global agribusiness multinational.
3. Procter & Gamble whose brandnames include Iams and Eukanuba. P & G sells a big percentage of the products in the personal toiletries section of your supermarket such as shampoos and conditioners, etc. plus laundry detergent and diapers, etc.
4. Colgate-Palmolive whose brandnames include Science Diet and Hill's. Toothpaste and soap and many others.
5. Del Monte whose brands include Kibble n Bits and Nature's Recipe. Packaged and canned consumer food in supermarkets, etc.
These Big 5 have lots of other brand names in the pet snack or pet treats category that are not listed above.
See also Mars Purchases Nutro Pet Foods :: West Coast Pet Supply
You have probably seen advertising for many of these brandnames on TV and other mass media. You can find these brands in supermarket chains like A & P, Safeway and others, in pet store chains like Petco, Petsmart and others, in Wal-Mart, etc. They typically occupy large amounts of shelf space. The stores give them a lot of shelf space because they sell pet food in volume. The Big 5 can and do negotiate more shelf space for their products than what smaller companies can.
Before the advent of the Internet and forums like GSD forum, consumers made pet food purchasing decisions in the following manner:
1. They saw advertising showing happy dogs and happy children, and went to the store looking for a brand, or;
2. They go to the store and while walking the aisles, purchase based on price and attractive packaging. Or what they see most common in the shelves.
3. Upon recommendation of their veterinarian.
4. Upon recommendation of their breeder.
5. Upon recommendation of their friends who originally picked a brand based on #1 to #4 reasons above.
So it should be no suprise that brands like Pedigree, Purina, and Iams are heavily advertised on TV (the most expensive form of advertising). That Eukanuba sponsors dog shows. That Royal Canin sponsors schutzhund in Europe. That Purina and Proplan give away free food to breeders. That Science Diet and Hill's, and Iams spend tons of money in marketing to veterinary colleges and universities, and veterinarian's offices. That Beneful has such attractive packaging that you want to buy a bag and eat the contents yourself!
All of these things costs money and they are included in the price of the bag or can of dog food you are paying for.
It also follows that if you read the ingredients' label of many of these brands you will see corn and wheat in its many forms, and animal by-products. Often as the primary or one of the primary ingredients. Why? Because they are cheap raw materials.
The agribusiness industry in America has made corn the cheapest source of calories, sugar, protein and fat in the world. In fact, they are implicated in the rampant obesity problem of Americans due to the abundance of cheap high calorie, sugary, starchy food and drinks in supermarkets and stores, etc., everywhere. No surprise that dog food companies emphasizing profits have seized upon corn as a major ingredient. Yes, you can get high protein and fat levels from corn. But is that protein and fat as usable to the carnivorous animal, your dog, as high quality animal protein and fat? Scientists who work for pet food companies and see the dog and any living
being as nothing more than a series of chemical substances and chemical reactions will argue that it is.
The Big 5 will argue that they have more money to spend on science and research. The science of good dog food today is not a big secret. A small company can go to state universities and hire animal nutrition professors for very little money to formulate good dog food. The Big 5 spend their research money mainly to figure out the cheapest way to make dog food that still meets AAFCO standards (w/c are minimum to begin with and set by the companies themselves), and to look good in the nutrients analysis with the lowest cost ingredients. Their research is focused on increasing profits.
Of course, its not only the Big 5. For example, Wal-mart is much bigger than any of the Big 5, and their Ol Roy is worse than any food from the Big 5. Just look at the first 5 ingredients of one of the "premium" formulas of Ol Roy: Wheat Flour, Soybean Meal, Water, Cereal Food Fines, Corn Syrup. Yes, this is supposed to be dog food. Is it any wonder that Wal-Mart has been one of the most profitable companies in the history of civilization?
What are your alternatives?
IMHO, there are many smaller companies that have to survive in the marketplace, and make profits, by making better product. They are focused on pet food and don't sell anything else. They don't have the advertising and promotions budget, the thousands of sales people that go to veterinarians and stores and dog shows, the budget to spend on human attractive packaging. They primarily rely on having a good product and word-of-mouth. In today's age of the
Internet, word of mouth has become a more viable method to let one's good product get known. That's one of the main benefits of forums like this. And one reason why there has been an explosion of new brands that focus on higher quality pet food for more knowledgeable consumers in the last few years. (Of course, just because a company is small doesn't mean it necessarily makes good dog food.)
In today's economic calamity, unfortunately, some of the smaller pet food companies who are trying to survive by putting more of your money back in each bag of dog food, through higher quality materials may not survive. the Big 5 will survive for sure because most consumers still purchase pet food on reasons #1 to #5 above. Some of these smaller companies may well be bought out and purchased cheap by the Big 5 in the future. Companies which used to make high quality pet food that have been purchased by the Big 5 do not have a good record of being able to maintain that quality because the business model of the Big 5 are based on Promotions (Advertising and Sales People), Packaging, Place, and Price to get the highest Profits possible, product is last on the list.
Moreover these huge companies have lots of overhead expenses, with CEOs that make up to tens of millions of dollars a year. You are paying for part of their salary and stock options. Their pet food division is just one of many business units that also make chocolate bars, laundry detergent, toothpaste, etc. When one of these other divisions need money, they can well take some of the budget away from the pet food unit.
Personally, I would prefer to support one of the family owned dog food companies, especially if they own the manufacturing facility themself. They can only rely on having a good product and a good name to protect their family's asset. Three off the top of my head are Orijen, Fromm and Solid Gold. I'm sure there are others out there."
"Whenever you purchase any pet food, consider what your dollars are paying for in each bag of dry food.
In general, whenever you buy from any of the 5 largest pet food manufacturers in the world, you are likely paying for Promotions and Advertising, Packaging and Place, with Product last in the list.
The 5 largest pet food manufacturers in the world, ranked in order of size are:
1. Mars Inc. whose brand names include Pedigree, Royal Canin, Nutro. Mars started as a chocolate bar company, and is today one of the largest chocolate and candy manufacturers in the world.
2. Nestle whose brandnames include Beneful, Purina, Proplan. Nestle of course has long been a chocolate bar and chocolate drink company and is now a global agribusiness multinational.
3. Procter & Gamble whose brandnames include Iams and Eukanuba. P & G sells a big percentage of the products in the personal toiletries section of your supermarket such as shampoos and conditioners, etc. plus laundry detergent and diapers, etc.
4. Colgate-Palmolive whose brandnames include Science Diet and Hill's. Toothpaste and soap and many others.
5. Del Monte whose brands include Kibble n Bits and Nature's Recipe. Packaged and canned consumer food in supermarkets, etc.
These Big 5 have lots of other brand names in the pet snack or pet treats category that are not listed above.
See also Mars Purchases Nutro Pet Foods :: West Coast Pet Supply
You have probably seen advertising for many of these brandnames on TV and other mass media. You can find these brands in supermarket chains like A & P, Safeway and others, in pet store chains like Petco, Petsmart and others, in Wal-Mart, etc. They typically occupy large amounts of shelf space. The stores give them a lot of shelf space because they sell pet food in volume. The Big 5 can and do negotiate more shelf space for their products than what smaller companies can.
Before the advent of the Internet and forums like GSD forum, consumers made pet food purchasing decisions in the following manner:
1. They saw advertising showing happy dogs and happy children, and went to the store looking for a brand, or;
2. They go to the store and while walking the aisles, purchase based on price and attractive packaging. Or what they see most common in the shelves.
3. Upon recommendation of their veterinarian.
4. Upon recommendation of their breeder.
5. Upon recommendation of their friends who originally picked a brand based on #1 to #4 reasons above.
So it should be no suprise that brands like Pedigree, Purina, and Iams are heavily advertised on TV (the most expensive form of advertising). That Eukanuba sponsors dog shows. That Royal Canin sponsors schutzhund in Europe. That Purina and Proplan give away free food to breeders. That Science Diet and Hill's, and Iams spend tons of money in marketing to veterinary colleges and universities, and veterinarian's offices. That Beneful has such attractive packaging that you want to buy a bag and eat the contents yourself!
All of these things costs money and they are included in the price of the bag or can of dog food you are paying for.
It also follows that if you read the ingredients' label of many of these brands you will see corn and wheat in its many forms, and animal by-products. Often as the primary or one of the primary ingredients. Why? Because they are cheap raw materials.
The agribusiness industry in America has made corn the cheapest source of calories, sugar, protein and fat in the world. In fact, they are implicated in the rampant obesity problem of Americans due to the abundance of cheap high calorie, sugary, starchy food and drinks in supermarkets and stores, etc., everywhere. No surprise that dog food companies emphasizing profits have seized upon corn as a major ingredient. Yes, you can get high protein and fat levels from corn. But is that protein and fat as usable to the carnivorous animal, your dog, as high quality animal protein and fat? Scientists who work for pet food companies and see the dog and any living
being as nothing more than a series of chemical substances and chemical reactions will argue that it is.
The Big 5 will argue that they have more money to spend on science and research. The science of good dog food today is not a big secret. A small company can go to state universities and hire animal nutrition professors for very little money to formulate good dog food. The Big 5 spend their research money mainly to figure out the cheapest way to make dog food that still meets AAFCO standards (w/c are minimum to begin with and set by the companies themselves), and to look good in the nutrients analysis with the lowest cost ingredients. Their research is focused on increasing profits.
Of course, its not only the Big 5. For example, Wal-mart is much bigger than any of the Big 5, and their Ol Roy is worse than any food from the Big 5. Just look at the first 5 ingredients of one of the "premium" formulas of Ol Roy: Wheat Flour, Soybean Meal, Water, Cereal Food Fines, Corn Syrup. Yes, this is supposed to be dog food. Is it any wonder that Wal-Mart has been one of the most profitable companies in the history of civilization?
What are your alternatives?
IMHO, there are many smaller companies that have to survive in the marketplace, and make profits, by making better product. They are focused on pet food and don't sell anything else. They don't have the advertising and promotions budget, the thousands of sales people that go to veterinarians and stores and dog shows, the budget to spend on human attractive packaging. They primarily rely on having a good product and word-of-mouth. In today's age of the
Internet, word of mouth has become a more viable method to let one's good product get known. That's one of the main benefits of forums like this. And one reason why there has been an explosion of new brands that focus on higher quality pet food for more knowledgeable consumers in the last few years. (Of course, just because a company is small doesn't mean it necessarily makes good dog food.)
In today's economic calamity, unfortunately, some of the smaller pet food companies who are trying to survive by putting more of your money back in each bag of dog food, through higher quality materials may not survive. the Big 5 will survive for sure because most consumers still purchase pet food on reasons #1 to #5 above. Some of these smaller companies may well be bought out and purchased cheap by the Big 5 in the future. Companies which used to make high quality pet food that have been purchased by the Big 5 do not have a good record of being able to maintain that quality because the business model of the Big 5 are based on Promotions (Advertising and Sales People), Packaging, Place, and Price to get the highest Profits possible, product is last on the list.
Moreover these huge companies have lots of overhead expenses, with CEOs that make up to tens of millions of dollars a year. You are paying for part of their salary and stock options. Their pet food division is just one of many business units that also make chocolate bars, laundry detergent, toothpaste, etc. When one of these other divisions need money, they can well take some of the budget away from the pet food unit.
Personally, I would prefer to support one of the family owned dog food companies, especially if they own the manufacturing facility themself. They can only rely on having a good product and a good name to protect their family's asset. Three off the top of my head are Orijen, Fromm and Solid Gold. I'm sure there are others out there."
jimmyj
Elite Member
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Thanks Redbug. I am aware of what the true costs are to produce some of the foods commonly bought by pet owners and you would be shocked at how low the actual ingredient costs are for some "well known brands" are. And you would be equally shocked at the marketing budget within the cost of each bag for some of those same brands.
The moral is for all of us to become educated and learn how to interpret a label and ingredient panel. There are good choices available that you can buy with a clear conscience.
Ol Roy is absolute junk - nobody should feed that to their pets. Sadly, it is the biggest seller in the US.
The moral is for all of us to become educated and learn how to interpret a label and ingredient panel. There are good choices available that you can buy with a clear conscience.
Ol Roy is absolute junk - nobody should feed that to their pets. Sadly, it is the biggest seller in the US.
Thanks Dave. What you may have thought of as long was actually information packed and brought home some of the ulterior motives of pet food companies and unfortunately, other than plain ignorance, some of the ulterior motives of pet owners such as , "my kid wanted the dam dog" or "its convenient, its right there when I go shopping" or "I'm not spending that kind of money for a dog". The poor dog is caught right in the middle yet that dog in that kind of circumstance will love and look up to its owners the same as that person who cares for their dog as being part of the family. That quote offered by Kthompson hits home all the time. "If I can only be the person my dog thinks I am."
Tdog
Platinum Member
Any idea how cat, rabbit & squirell poop would be rated?
Jack
Jack