Engine Damage Caused By Ethanol Gasoline!?

[mo1]

How about this ... if Ethanol is such a great fuel, go down to your local dealer that sells ZTR's, chainsaws, string trimmers (and does engine work on all these too) and inform them how great it is. Please put the exchange on YouTube so we can all get a kick out of their reaction.

Those engines are either not designed for ethanol at all or are only designed for low (<=10%) concentrations of ethanol in gasoline. Putting ethanol-containing fuel into an ethanol-incompatible engine is about as smart as putting diesel fuel into a non-diesel engine. The engines that are rated to handle low-concentration ethanol fuels will do fine on it, otherwise the manufacturers would say to avoid them. The main problems for small engines are old/stale fuel and a lack of maintenance, both of which happen with using non-ethanol fuels.

 

[hutchman]

Those engines are either not designed for ethanol at all or are only designed for low (<=10%) concentrations of ethanol in gasoline. Putting ethanol-containing fuel into an ethanol-incompatible engine is about as smart as putting diesel fuel into a non-diesel engine. The engines that are rated to handle low-concentration ethanol fuels will do fine on it, otherwise the manufacturers would say to avoid them. The main problems for small engines are old/stale fuel and a lack of maintenance, both of which happen with using non-ethanol fuels.

I'm talking about new engines that were designed for E10 ... they have the EPA badge on them that says what spec they met and how long they are rated to be compliant for or something like that. One of my friends owns one of the largest shops around here that deals in all the top name brands. Not a one of them believes Ethanol is good for engines. We have the largest (maybe not now but used to be) man made lake in the US here and the boating industry is of the same mind.

The entire premise of the idea is flawed and is nothing but a way to create markets that fleece the masses, waste tax dollars, create regulations (follow the money), compete and drive up food prices ... all in the name of saving the planet while it actually does more damage than what real gas used to (I'm ignoring the MTBFE issue in that statement) and all the while delivering less MPG because most people don't know or care what BTU is. And those fuel systems that had to be made out of material that resists corrosion don't make engines more expensive at all.

 

[Phil48]

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Very interesting facts from Stihl, from our local Stihl dealer : "only Shell v power ethanol free !"

 

[hutchman]

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I'm convinced that last link is what causes the most problems:

"Ethanol attracts and mixes with moisture in the air, causing corrosion to metal components in the fuel system. If enough water is absorbed, the ethanol and water will settle out of the gasoline blend and settle to the bottom of the equipment's tank. The layer of gasoline left floating on top has a lower octane level than the original ethanol gasoline blend, which can result in unstable engine operation, power loss and major engine failures.
Since the fuel is often drawn from the bottom of the fuel tank, the engine is drawing in a mixture of ethanol and water with no gasoline and no lubricating oil. This ethanol/water mix is thicker than gasoline and cannot easily pass through the fuel system. This can result in hard starting, unsafe high idle speeds, stalling, and can ultimately lead to engine damage or fuel system failure."

But again ... I've read too many stories of contamination or blend problems with transportation trucks. They don't clean out the tanker when they switch loads. So if the taker delivered E10 and then delivered E85 and then delivered another load of E10 .. who knows what you're really getting.

I've pretty much switched to using cans of that engineered fuel in my chainsaws etc. because you can't control what comes out of a pump these days. It's really getting stupid.

 

[hutchman]

... and for those that haven't been paying attention the last few months ... the situation is about to get much worse. With the decline in demand, producers can't sell all the Ethanol the law required and now O wants to dump even more on the market ... there is a push to raise E10 to E15 and roll out more E85. You can imagine the problems this will create.

This article has links to most of the other "warts and all" related links of totally pissed off parties:

EPA proposes a biofuels compromise — and makes nobody happy - The Washington Post

 

[hutchman]

Sorry, I just couldn't resist:

All This for .01 Degrees Celsius?:
Joe Bastardi: All This for .01 Degrees Celsius? ? The Patriot Post

EPA: We don't need to justify our regulations to avert warming .01 degrees:
EPA: We don't need to justify our regulations to avert warming .01 degrees - Boston environmental policy | Examiner.com

 

[mo1]

I'm talking about new engines that were designed for E10 ... they have the EPA badge on them that says what spec they met and how long they are rated to be compliant for or something like that. One of my friends owns one of the largest shops around here that deals in all the top name brands. Not a one of them believes Ethanol is good for engines. We have the largest (maybe not now but used to be) man made lake in the US here and the boating industry is of the same mind.

The entire premise of the idea is flawed and is nothing but a way to create markets that fleece the masses, waste tax dollars, create regulations (follow the money), compete and drive up food prices ... all in the name of saving the planet while it actually does more damage than what real gas used to (I'm ignoring the MTBFE issue in that statement) and all the while delivering less MPG because most people don't know or care what BTU is. And those fuel systems that had to be made out of material that resists corrosion don't make engines more expensive at all.

Very little "real gas" is a very good fuel, which is why we have been trying to add things to all but the absolute best of it for nearly a century to raise the octane rating to make it a better fuel. First it was ethanol. Then prohibition came along and "devil spirits" became illegal, so out went ethanol. We then had the very toxic tetraethyl lead which was also notorious to leave all sorts of deposits inside of engines. It got banned for a multitude of reasons. Then came MTBE which had significant groundwater contamination issues which led to it being banned as well. And now we're back to ethanol. It's either that or try to burn gas with an octane maybe a fuzz over 80. How would your 90+ octane requiring chainsaw like that "real gas?" I am guessing your small engine guy would suddenly develop a good appreciation for ethanol in gasoline after seeing people run that dreck through their engines and blow them up.

There is unfortunately a lot of political BS surrounding the use of ethanol as a fuel which has detracted from its use as a fuel. That has essentially always been the case. First it was prohibition- ethanol is BOOZE, so it's evil! Ban it! Now it's affected by the alternating love-hate attitudes of the enviro-goofballs which have an outsized influence on our government. Giant agribusiness also has its hands in ethanol as well which turns a lot of people off. It's literally impossible to have a discussion about the merits of ethanol as a fuel in its own rights without the politics spoiling the discussion faster than an opened beer goes flat on a 100 degree day in the sun.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist:

All This for .01 Degrees Celsius?:
Joe Bastardi: All This for .01 Degrees Celsius? ? The Patriot Post

EPA: We don't need to justify our regulations to avert warming .01 degrees:
EPA: We don't need to justify our regulations to avert warming .01 degrees - Boston environmental policy | Examiner.com

My point exactly- too much politics involved to even discuss the issue.

 

[Sodo]

Thoughts On Ethanol Anyone?

I think this pic is a sign of the times. Lots of problems blamed on something completely un-related, and gets passed around and nobody knows, or cares if its true.

I wonder sometimes if these stories are cooked up (or repeated over and over again) by political action committees to get everybody confused about governmental affairs and therefore unable to vote with any sense. That way they can do their political shenanigans without people getting together and put a stop to it.

I have 50+ engines and if this problem was as big as the stories make it to be -- I would never be running anything only fixing stuff. And that ain't the case.

The only problem I've had is with ethanol gasoline boiling on a hot day, in a hot chainsaw (and vapor locking). Just boiling away, for 10 minutes in the gas tank, first time I'd ever seen it. I stuck my finger in the gas and it was warm, not hot. I'll use pure gas when it's hot out.

 

[hutchman]

One of the links Phil48 posted has a link to s Forbes article that pretty much sums up all I know to be the issues. It's from 2012 and I hadn't seen it until now.

Ten Reasons To Care That E15 Ethanol Is On The Way To Your Gas Station

Today RFS is in a lot more trouble than it was back then ... the drumbeat too repeal it is very strong and in my estimation is circiling the drain as it should. Just Google EPA RFS if you want to get caught up on all the state govs', senators and others demanding it is modified or repealed.

We can't all go out and throw away all our "old" engines because some pinhead in an office decides E15 is good for us. There are 2nd and 3rd order effects to some of these seemingly "good ideas" that they never appear to consider. The fantasy all of this was based on when it past has all been thoroughly debunked.

 

[bigtiller]

Ethanol has been around for a long time but we started putting it in our gas tanks to help lessen the countries dependency on foreign oil after the '73 Arab oil embargo. Even tho prices are declining now, I think it is still a good idea to use it to help stretch our oil dependency as far as we can.

E10 is enough for me, forget about the E15. And E85 is just too costly to distribute.