Comparison Ford Jubilee vs 641 - First Tractor!

[TripleR]

We have a NAA, 600 and 601, use to have an 841. 1st gear is too high for me compared to later models. I much prefer the later models, but feel all are overpriced.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks for the reply rScotty.

Primary uses: Brush hogging, gravel driveway maintenance, and finish mower.
I'll eventually want to do some work on fencing with it... just a 6 acre "farm", but a lot of barbed wire fencing that I'll want to replace one of these days.
From what I've read on this site I'm actually ok with not having a front loader if my budget doesn't permit. I'm sure I can make a carry-all or (not sure what it's called, back scoop that pulls into the tractor?) work.

Out of curiosity - what would the "next step" look like, if I wanted to move to a more modern option first. Does increasing my budget put me in a better situation when considering reliability, resale, etc? Should i like at something closer to $6k? Trying to find that balance of not going overboard for just 6 acres of mostly mowing & playing around, but also not spending $3k so I can spend every other weekend trying to get my old tractor working again.

Appreciate the advice!

For most of us a "next step" would be to look at older Japanese 4wd diesel tractors in the 20 to 30 hp range. They might be as old as 1980 to 1990.... They are not as pretty as the old American iron, but are better tractors: IF YOU CAN FIND A GOOD ONE!. And that is the problem..... Frankly it is easier to find a good older American Utility tractor than a good old imported diesel tractor. And they cost less. But the imports are a step up if you find a nice one. Often it will be an older Yanmar, Yanmar/John Deere, or sometimes (rarely) an older Kubota. It might be a "gray model".
There are good dealers of these old tractors who have posted here on TBN for many years : Yanmar Tractor Parts is one of the best. Take a look at his site.

That Workmaster looks nice in the photo. Got more photos? What Strum456 is getting at is that those older domestic utility tractors were unit construction. They didn't have a separate frame to carry the loads. Instead they used the engine, bellhousing, and transmission/rear end castings and bolted those together with everything else bolted to those castings. And often the front axle pivoted on a cast projection that was part of the front casting of the engine. That made some axle pivot failures very difficult to repair propertly. You need to examine that closely and post some pictures.

In my opinion, there is NO FORM OF WELDING THAT IS OK on that front axle pivot casting. The part itself needs complete replacement - and that is rarely done.

That's one of the reasons why the Japanese diesels are a "next step". They began to use steel frames for some parts rather than having castings carry all the loads.
John Deere also began doing that with their A and B series in the 1950s and 1960s, but it is hard to find one of those with a wide front configuration. (2 front wheels separated by an axle). You DO NOT WANT ANY OF THE TRICYCLE type tractors as a first tractor. They were dangerous.
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

Tyler, you haven't mentioned your own mechanical abilities. Most people sell their old tractors because they got tired of "futzing with them". The owner sells it to the next buyer for a low price - and that happens again and again until someone in that chain of ownership eventually fixes all the small hassles up and makes it worth 2 or 3 times the price. But as you say, for the new tractor guy it is hard to tell fixed from repainted.

So with that in mind, how are you on old simple pre-emission carburettor disassembly, cleaning, reassembly, and tuning? How about replacing simple wheel bearings? Brakes? Steering ball joints & bushings? Do you feel comfortable with the old battery/coil/distributor spark plug ignition systems? What about DC generators and voltage regulators. All these things are very simple and inexpensive.... and they will last for decades once set up correctly...but I guarantee in the under $4000 dollar old domestic utility tractor market you will get to do at least a few of these jobs ... and do them YOURSELF. If that doesn't sound like fun to you then you might want to reconsider.
BTW, all those things do sound like fun to some of us. It does to me for instance. But there are other forums for us do it yourselfers. TBN has more of the new or recent model owners.
rScotty

 

[Tyler B]

Here are a few more pictures. If I decide to move on the 641 then I plan on going out and confirming that a new battery fixes that slow start. If I do then I'll take more close ups of the fix of the front.

As to your question about my mechanical background. Zero! To this point in life I've been pretty good at teaching myself stuff by being resourceful (ie spend a lot of time on Youtube). However I've got zero experience working on these types of machines... was able to fix an issue with a cotter pin on my modern garden tractor! Standard maintenance... that's about it. That's why I've been hesitant to move on any of these old machines - every one I've gone out and seen has needed at least something fixed that I could see (meaning there's more that I don't see). If I could pay a premium to buy something in perfect condition then I would... but I think I'm fooling myself to think that it would mean I'd have no issues with a tractor this old.

 

[rScotty]

I can't think of a better way to teach yourself mechanics than an old tractor. Reasonable prices for parts, simple construction, and you are rewarded with a better machine at the end.

You do want to avoid a couple of unfixable problems. Because the front axle damage might be one of those things, you should consider taking a mechanic along who does welding himself. You want him to look at the front axle repair. It may involve scraping off some paint. He needs to confirm for you that the repair to the front axle does not include any structural welding to the front axle support or to any of the cast iron parts. Damage to cast iron parts in front of that model is typical if someone tried to fit a front end loader onto the tractor. If so, consider either looking elsewhere or planning on a LOT of work to make it a dependable tractor.... and offer half the money at most.

Just about anything else you can deal with on any old tractor. Repairs to working systems are easy and inexpensive and kind of fun. But you cannot deal with broken and repaired cast iron parts. If it broke the front axle support it may have also broken the bell-housing casting. Look there as well.

You should also hook up some implement weighting at least 4 or 500 lbs to the 3pt hitch and lift it into the air. The 3pt control should raise and lower it smoothly and it should stay up by itself....or at the very worse, not fall more than a few inches in 5 minutes. If it doesn't pass that test, knock $1000 off the price and plan on teaching yourself about tractor hydraulics. That's the type of work you can do.

You mentioned that it turns over slowly. That's OK as long as it ultimately does start, runs, and idles well. If it turns over slowly that may well be an old battery or bad connections. So you should take your good battery along. But it could also simply be that their battery is good and the tractor's charging system is not adequately charging it, or that the starter is dragging due to old brushes and bushings. If those are the problems, your mechanic friend will know at once by looking at the ammeter. If it isn't charging, knock off about $400 and simply replace generator, starter, voltage regulator, battery, and the battery connectors. That's simple and fairly typical old tractor maintenance work. Once you understand those parts better you won't have to replace them, you can rebuild most of those in one evening for $100 and pocket the change. (or buy more tools!)

All in all, an old tractor is an excellent and inexpensive way to learn about mechanics. And that knowledge will pay dividends forever.
And leave yourself enough extra cash for three books: You want good original shop, parts, and owners manuals. You'll find them on ebay or Abebooks.com
rScotty

 

[strum456]

The front axle mount on a 641 is steel, not cast. I have welded a few of them, and I have had zero problems after years of service. If the rad was taken out by the axle, something had to of let loose in a catastrophic fashion such that it shouldn't be difficult to find evidence of a repair. I'd pay close attention to how the main pivot pin goes into the front support. The front support may have an over-sized / worn out hole that caused the pin to come out.

At the listed price, this kind of stuff should be fixed and fixed properly. If they were asking 1500, then that would be a different story.

 

[Ford850]

Are you sure the front axle was worked on? When they said they had to work on the front end and replace the radiator, they might mean the bumper guard was crushed into the grill and radiator. They obviously rebuilt the bumper and replaced the grill in front of the radiator. A slow crank is normal for the old 6 volt systems, and they really need bright and tight connections. All of them. That was the best advice I got when I bought my 850 many years ago. After cleaning all connections, using a wire brush to shine them up and then reinstalling nice and snug, I got better starting performance.

 

[Tyler B]

Just got clarification from the seller - her husband ("has been a tech for 40 years") and son did the fix. When asked if the front axle was repaired or if it was just the bumper & grill, their response was "it was the pivot pin that's on the front axle and the mount that the pin goes into".

They also shared the contact information for the local mechanic they've been using to do the rest of the work on the tractor over the past year. I plan on giving him a call to pick his brain, and hopefully adding him to my speed dial!

So it sounds like I need to confirm two things before pulling the trigger on the 641:
1) Take a good battery out there and see if it fixes the slow start. If it doesn't, then there's likely a charging issue (look at ammeter), and knock off ~$400 of the asking price to afford replacing generator, starter, etc.
2) Look closely at the fix to the front end / front axle. Get an idea of what was replaced or fixed using welding (sounds like there's some debate of what's acceptable). I'll post some pictures later on with what I see.

Thanks again to everyone for the help! This forum rocks.

Tyler B

 

[rScotty]

Just got clarification from the seller - her husband ("has been a tech for 40 years") and son did the fix. When asked if the front axle was repaired or if it was just the bumper & grill, their response was "it was the pivot pin that's on the front axle and the mount that the pin goes into".

They also shared the contact information for the local mechanic they've been using to do the rest of the work on the tractor over the past year. I plan on giving him a call to pick his brain, and hopefully adding him to my speed dial!

So it sounds like I need to confirm two things before pulling the trigger on the 641:
1) Take a good battery out there and see if it fixes the slow start. If it doesn't, then there's likely a charging issue (look at ammeter), and knock off ~$400 of the asking price to afford replacing generator, starter, etc.
2) Look closely at the fix to the front end / front axle. Get an idea of what was replaced or fixed using welding (sounds like there's some debate of what's acceptable). I'll post some pictures later on with what I see.

Thanks again to everyone for the help! This forum rocks.

Tyler B

It's sounding better and better. I'm particularly glad to hear Strum456 say that the front axle support is steel; not cast iron. The other thing you want to do is check the 3pt lift. You will be using it a lot, and if it lifts and lowers nicely and stays up with a few hundred pounds of mower on it then that also lets you know that the hydraulics are OK. It would be appropriate to check that the PTO turns the mower. If someone hasn't added some sort of OVER-RUNNING or slip clutch to the PTO driveshaft, you need to add that part. It is now standard on all tractors but was not back in the 50s.

A gasoline engine that cranks over lazy doesn't bother me as long as it runs & idles basically OK. Electrical problems are easy to put right on these older tractors.Tuning is simple.

You'll want a few implements. Without implements, a tractor is just a slow way to drive to town. Implements never really get too old to use, and you can often pick them up for inexpensive or even free. If you can find a 3pt reversible dirt scoop it will do a lot of hauling and even a little fit of the kind of work that a front end loader will do. (on your next tractor....) Some call them a back bucket. Used to be more common than they are today. To find one, look in the weeds was back behind the oldest tractor shop you know of...
Luck, rScotty

 

[Tyler B]

Quick update for everyone here. Finally pulled the trigger on the Ford 641!

When I went back out there the tractor started right up on the first turn (even before hooking up the new battery i took with me). The seller had fixed the tube running to the carb and thinks that's what caused the slow start before. I then closely inspected the front end fix and asked some questions and found out that there was actually no welding required. They simply had to take part of the tractor apart to put in a new pivot pin into that brushing (hope I'm not butchering that). Either way when I asked "so did y'all have to do any welding of the axle or any of these parts" he responded "oh no no, nothing like that. that wouldn't have been good". After driving it around again and kicking the tires a bit (and considering I had seen another 3 or 4 tractors to compare it to), I felt good with moving forward!

Can't wait to brush hog some stuff down with it this weekend! Now to learn how to properly maintain the thing... and start shopping for more implements! Will start with a blade / box blade for the driveway, and maybe a finish mower for once I get things cleaned up with the brush hog... but I'm sure the collection will grow fast.

Thanks again for everyone's help.
Tyler