Loader Front end Loader Lift Question

[AxleHub]

Greetings, I also said I don't condone any unsafe acts also. That I use my on judgement and sense and take full responsibility for such actions. I'm pretty sure that we all know what propane is capable, as a 15 year volunteer fireman, a chief engineer for a very large company, I deal with safety on a day to day basis and so called safety experts. But I also know how much sense some people really have. That's my experience. I don't want to see any one getting hurt, but we could debate this all day about how much was in the tank and we will never know. Far as tractor lift, a few inches off the ground that tank is not gonna fall off the loader and explode. The op knows he done something unsafe. He realized it and like someone pointed out. No sense in being harsh to him. Have a nice day. LUTT

Lutt,

Because you work with firefighting I have a couple questions about propane tank issues you might be able to answer.

LP Tanks are dangerous for both explosion and also for fire ball issues.

1. If the valve cracks or leaks you can create first a fireball of leaked gas at groudlevel and then it follows back and creates like a giant bunsen burner at the valve. I assume that is fought with foam or some freezing element ???

2. I assume smothering the flame could allow flame to get in the tank to create explosion instead or if there was a puncture in a lower area of the rank or the valve ended up facing anyway but up??

How do the firemen know if they can get close enough to spray /foam without triggering explosion issues? Does pouring cold water on the tank to drop temperature reduce or increase potential flame in the tank ?

 

[LD1]

I am no fireman, but saw a show on tv, one of them about real life documentaries and such.

The fireman did spray water go try to lower the temp of a tank of combustible liquid.

The explosion they were trying to prevent was called a bleve. Pronounced blevy.

Stood for boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion.

I think that is indeed the main threat of explosion. But don't know that it would happen if a line caught fire and followed back to the tank, especially if the valve were on top. I think it applys more to, say a gas tank. Where a leak underneath catches fire and heats the contents of the tank as it burns.

Did also see a few mythbuster episodes. One about trying to blow up a gas tank, the other bout trying to explode a propane tank with a bullet. Both nwere bear impossible

 

[dodge man]

Its been several years ago, but a nearby fire department lost 2 or 3 guys to a LP tank explosion. They were spraying the tank down, more or less from behind a fire truck at the time. The tank near a building that was on fire. The tank was venting and on fire and then exploded. The tank flew a long distance and hit the truck they were behind killing them. Not a common thing since they are designed to bleed off the extra pressure through the valve on the top.

 

[aczlan]

The risk is the fire heating vapor space in the tank up (causing steel to weaken and the propane to boil and expand faster than the relief valve can release the pressure) until the pressure from the propane is higher than the tank can hold and the tank blows up (causing ALL the propane left in the tank to be released at once and causing a BLEV)

Here is a video showing how it happens:

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

A video showing a training practice for a burning propane truck:

Aaron Z

 

[drajj5]

drajj5: how large was your tank?

If I had to move a tank any distance at all, I'd have done it just as you describe. Chained solid to the bucket.

I had to move my 500 gallon tank just a few feet closer to the house so the copper line would reach. The standard 20' length of copper I bought was just a tad too short. The tank still had about 15% in it to. My best guess is 1400-1500# I wouldn't

The hooks are for empty only. With only 15% in the tank I wasnt worried. But wouldnt have dine it with any more in the tank.

View attachment 449757

The tank size was a 250 gallon "I think" - hard to tell the difference. I do know it is smaller than the one at my house #1. I just set it off down by the barn, maybe I will move up; to gas heat in the barn,,,one day.

 

[drajj5]

I have 6" teeth on my bucket and if I had to do the same move I would put wood across the teeth and then up both sides of the bucket and go in from the bottom and strap the tank to the bucket and move. Steel won't spark against wood.

I too have the tooth bar installed, wood was not needed as those ratchet straps were so tight that the tank would have ripped the bucket from the loader before it moved/wiggled while attached to bucket.

 

[oldpilgrim]

i'm not going to comment on how anything was done or if it was dangerous.

i'll just say that i have shot at 20lb propane tanks with high powered rifles and all they did was go psssssst and shoot propane out the hole until they were empty..

 

[Everhard]

Firemen typically won't try to stop the tank venting if it is already (typically the vent "vents" if the pressure is exceeded in the tank that it's designed for and that happens typically from excessive heat applied to the tank.) Instead they attempt to cool the tank to the point that it stops venting. If it stops venting then there's also no more gas coming out of it, mitigating that issue. If you try to cap the vent all you're doing is stopping the tank from being able to release the pressure that's building up inside the tank. Guess what happens if you stop that from happening...
Now if the vent can't keep up with the pressure that's building up inside the tank or if the tank structure itself weakens to the point it can't take the pressure in the tank then the tank ruptures - at that point the gas is released in an uncontrolled fashion. (unlike from the vent) At that point the tank will BLEVE as was explained above. And at that point if said tank ONLY travels a 100' everyone is lucky. Chances parts will travel much much further. IF a 100 gallon tank bleve's the ERG (Emergency response guide) recommends a minimum safe distance of over a quarter mile, a 500 gallon tank that becomes a half mile, 2000 gallon - now you're getting close to a mile before you're possibly safe... You get the idea.
Incidentally For those curious the problem compounds if the tank is being heated by a fire causing it to vent - a full tank because of all the propane in it helps keep the tank structure from heating up to the point that the steel weakens to the point it fails but while it continues to vent guess what - that full tank gets emptier and emptier and then there isn't as much propane keeping things cool (plus the propane also heats up of course.) And then the steel heats up and fails. Boom!

Anyway, that's my basic knowledge on the stuff. So, ya, don't light a fire under a tank, don't knock the vent or any other fitting off the tank, and don't dent it if you feel you must transport a tank. That's my 2 cents on the whole transporting issue. Btw - if you have a proper sized counterweight hangin' off the rear of the tractor then you in my simple mind aren't overloaded the tractor. It was designed to lift what the loader can lift. Of course if you're at the max speed with said heavy load instead of inching along then you're increasing the risk of braking something but then you weren't very bright in the first place. (Doesn't sound like that was the case here happily.)

My 2 Canadian cents - So that's not worth much today!
E.

 

[GManBart]

I know this event is in the past, but maybe someone else will read it later, so I'll add one comment.

Rather than using the FEL, strapping the tank to a carryall on the 3pt probably would have been safer, and easier on the machine. You can get a pretty big tank strapped to a carryall if you have the ability to secure it really well. Add some boards to the carryall, and it won't even scratch the tank. Depending on the exact situation, it might take a couple of boards to make a ramp, and either someone to push the tank, a come-a-long, or something similar to get the tank on the carryall, but it shouldn't be that difficult....worst case, dig down six inches so the top of the carryall is even with the bottom of the tank, then pull it on with straps/chains and binders.