GM 4.5L Diesel May Still Be Alive

[dgl24087]

GM reconsidering 4.5-liter Duramax diesel for use in HD pickups Autoblog

On a side note, the Ford 4.4L diesel is being manufactured in the same plant as the 6.7, and is being shipped to Land Rover. HP and torque (308 hp, 516 ft-lbs tq) are very close to the GM 4.5L.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Boy, that's great. I thought these 1/2 ton diesels were dead. I would love to have 500 ft lbs of torque in a 1/2 ton but I have a feeling the extra cost will not make them popular. Especially with many new gassers making nearly that power. I know its not diesel power but the current linup of 1/2 tons are pretty stout.

Right now you can get a 1 ton SRW comparably equipped to most 1/2 tons for about the same money, well within a few thousand. If they go making these 1/2 ton diesels $6,000 more or so I do not see them selling with the gas engines being able to tow 10,000# or so currently. Its a different game in a 3/4 or 1 ton due to the fact that the base 5.4L Ford, 6.0 GM, or the 5.7 Hemi is no comparison to the diesel offerings in this class of truck and it makes sense for many to spend the extra $8,000 or so to upgrade. We will just have to see what the price point is on these smaller diesels in the HD market.

Chris

 

[Lt CHEG]

Boy, that's great. I thought these 1/2 ton diesels were dead. I would love to have 500 ft lbs of torque in a 1/2 ton but I have a feeling the extra cost will not make them popular. Especially with many new gassers making nearly that power. I know its not diesel power but the current linup of 1/2 tons are pretty stout.

Right now you can get a 1 ton SRW comparably equipped to most 1/2 tons for about the same money, well within a few thousand. If they go making these 1/2 ton diesels $6,000 more or so I do not see them selling with the gas engines being able to tow 10,000# or so currently. Its a different game in a 3/4 or 1 ton due to the fact that the base 5.4L Ford, 6.0 GM, or the 5.7 Hemi is no comparison to the diesel offerings in this class of truck and it makes sense for many to spend the extra $8,000 or so to upgrade. We will just have to see what the price point is on these smaller diesels in the HD market.

Chris

I tell you what, I'll be in line to buy one if they decide to build one. As long as it will tow what my current half ton will or hopefully a little more I'm a buyer. What really has me interested is the part of the article where GM says that they are averaging 25 mpg with their fleet of test trucks. I would love a significant increase in fuel economy such as that. Heck even if I never hit the break even point for how much extra the diesel option is over what I'd save in fuel usage, I'd frankly rather give my extra money to the car companies than to the oil companies. Plus the engine would still be putting out more torque than my beloved 5.3 liter V8 even if the horsepower is about the same. Plus just with the mechanical differences of how a diesel works as opposed to a gasoline engine, I have to believe that the diesel would do a better job towing and would probably lose less fuel economy while towing. I'm very hopeful that we'll see one of these smaller diesels in a half ton truck. Even better yet would be if they include the same technology being used in the new duramax and Power Stroke powerplants that have given both of those engines impressive fuel economy levels of up to the mid 20's in highway mpg. If they could squeeze 28 mpg highway out of an unloaded half ton crew cab like mine with these horsepower and torque numbers then there is no question that even an extra $6,000 to $8,000 for the price of the truck would pay off in the long run.

 

[wvpolekat]

The problem is once you have the HP/Torque to make folks happy, you then need the suspension and brakes to tow anything with it. AKA 3/4 ton truck.

 

[ModMech]

The problem is once you have the HP/Torque to make folks happy,

A larage portion of the folks that buy based on HP and Tq numbers, are NEVER satisfied and will make efforts to inclrease both.

you then need the suspension and brakes to tow anything with it. AKA 3/4 ton truck.

Yup, that is a BIG part of the problem.

 

[Diamondpilot]

To me the 25 mpg is not all that impressive. Many of the new 2010 and later 1/2 tons are getting about 20 mpg. Fords new 2011 diesel in a 3/4 ton was doing 25 or better during a test a few months back by a few magazine's.

Chris

 

[Lt CHEG]

To me the 25 mpg is not all that impressive. Many of the new 2010 and later 1/2 tons are getting about 20 mpg. Fords new 2011 diesel in a 3/4 ton was doing 25 or better during a test a few months back by a few magazine's.

Chris

I understand what you're saying but even 25 mpg compared to 20 mpg is a 25% increase which is far from insignificant. Also I think you really have to go easy on one of these trucks to get 20 mpg, whereas I think you could probably get a little more power out of the diesel while still maintaining the higher fuel economy. I know in my case I usually set my cruise at about 72 on long rides and still haven't been able to achieve the rated 20 mpg highway. I think the testing these companies are talking about is more real world testing as opposed to EPA mpg numbers. Plus if you add the technology like urea injection etc. that Ford and GM are using on their big diesels now to get up to 25 mpg I see no reason that you couldn't adapt the same technology to the smaller diesels and get 30 mpg. If you could get a half ton truck to deliver 30 mpg you are now squarely in Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Hyundai Elantra, etc. class fuel economy which is something I'd definitely like. I much prefer to drive my truck and my wife much prefers to ride in my truck, but we usually take her SUV because it gets much better fuel economy. I think a lot of people are in the same boat as me. Heck, I'd even consider a hybrid if it didn't come with such an enormous performance cost. I know a lot of people like myself that are not even remotely close to being environmentalists but just can't stand to give the oil companies a single cent more than we absolutely have to, especially after the screwing we all took in 2008 with the oil speculation game. Simply put if I can take a nickel out of the hands of the oil companies by driving a truck that gets significantly better fuel economy while still allowing me to tow 10,000 pounds then I'm all for it.

 

[lostcause]

Boy, that's great. I thought these 1/2 ton diesels were dead. I would love to have 500 ft lbs of torque in a 1/2 ton but I have a feeling the extra cost will not make them popular. Especially with many new gassers making nearly that power. I know its not diesel power but the current linup of 1/2 tons are pretty stout.

Chris

problem is that only a small percentage of the buying population understand that the hp & torque numbers are only part of the equation. it's the 4 digit number after the @ that tells the truth.

those who drive trucks - and i don't mean new-age suburban mall-hoppers and grocery getters making mad dashes in and out of traffic - generally drive at 1500-2000rpm, with bursts in the 2500-3500 range when accelerating into traffic or passing. the average diesel makes 75%-90% of its torque in the rpm range we use. the newer big number gas engines are making their power at 3000+ rpm. if you want real numbers, you need to look at the torque curves and see what they have at the rpm you drive.

i do own one diesel, but over the years most of my trucks have always been gas. i tow a max of 6000-8000lbs, and i don't do that many miles, so the cost of a diesel isn't really worth it over the amount of time i own the truck. i've generally been a gm owner, so i can't say for ford & dodge, but you can look at the hp numbers of the 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0 and there's not a huge difference - until you drive them. the smaller the engine, the more you have to put your foot into it to see the return. if you really want "truck" power out of a gas engine, the old saying is still true - there's no replacement for displacement.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I understand what you're saying but even 25 mpg compared to 20 mpg is a 25% increase which is far from insignificant. Also I think you really have to go easy on one of these trucks to get 20 mpg, whereas I think you could probably get a little more power out of the diesel while still maintaining the higher fuel economy. I know in my case I usually set my cruise at about 72 on long rides and still haven't been able to achieve the rated 20 mpg highway. I think the testing these companies are talking about is more real world testing as opposed to EPA mpg numbers. Plus if you add the technology like urea injection etc. that Ford and GM are using on their big diesels now to get up to 25 mpg I see no reason that you couldn't adapt the same technology to the smaller diesels and get 30 mpg. If you could get a half ton truck to deliver 30 mpg you are now squarely in Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Hyundai Elantra, etc. class fuel economy which is something I'd definitely like. I much prefer to drive my truck and my wife much prefers to ride in my truck, but we usually take her SUV because it gets much better fuel economy. I think a lot of people are in the same boat as me. Heck, I'd even consider a hybrid if it didn't come with such an enormous performance cost. I know a lot of people like myself that are not even remotely close to being environmentalists but just can't stand to give the oil companies a single cent more than we absolutely have to, especially after the screwing we all took in 2008 with the oil speculation game. Simply put if I can take a nickel out of the hands of the oil companies by driving a truck that gets significantly better fuel economy while still allowing me to tow 10,000 pounds then I'm all for it.

I totally agree with what you are saying. The problem is whit the upfront cost of the diesel engine. I have a 04 F-250 and a 06 F-350 that we drive and with slight modifications both of these trucks get in the high 23 mpg range at around 75 mph and can still pull heavy loads if needed. The diesel option was about $6000 at the time.

Today the diesel is pushing $10,000 as a option on 2011 trucks. The price point is going to be a killer. Especially if you are only going from 20 to 25 mpg and not really getting a increase in tow rating over gas. On the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks its a different ball game because going from the base gas engine to the diesel you double the tow rating and fuel economy.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

problem is that only a small percentage of the buying population understand that the hp & torque numbers are only part of the equation. it's the 4 digit number after the @ that tells the truth.

those who drive trucks - and i don't mean new-age suburban mall-hoppers and grocery getters making mad dashes in and out of traffic - generally drive at 1500-2000rpm, with bursts in the 2500-3500 range when accelerating into traffic or passing. the average diesel makes 75%-90% of its torque in the rpm range we use. the newer big number gas engines are making their power at 3000+ rpm. if you want real numbers, you need to look at the torque curves and see what they have at the rpm you drive.

i do own one diesel, but over the years most of my trucks have always been gas. i tow a max of 6000-8000lbs, and i don't do that many miles, so the cost of a diesel isn't really worth it over the amount of time i own the truck. i've generally been a gm owner, so i can't say for ford & dodge, but you can look at the hp numbers of the 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0 and there's not a huge difference - until you drive them. the smaller the engine, the more you have to put your foot into it to see the return. if you really want "truck" power out of a gas engine, the old saying is still true - there's no replacement for displacement.

I know what you are saying. I feel for the hype and bought a Hemi 2500 4x4. It had impressive numbers but did not hold a candle to the 4 diesels I have owned. 3 Fords and 1 GM. There is no comparison to getting things rolling at 1000 rpm and tooling down the road with 15,000# behind you at 1800 rpm versus a gasser screaming at 3,000 rpm with half that load.

I am really disappointed in the new gas offerings from most manufactures. The Hemi is a status symbol in a truck and is really a joke. I had one so I know first hand. GM dumped the great 8.1 and now forces you to buy the Dmax if you want to do real work and now Ford is following suit by canning the V-10. I have always been a Ford fan but am no really disappointed in the gas engine lineup. I studied all available last year and bought a Nissan Titan. The make power like the older gassers putting down about 400 ft lbs below 3,000 rpm and make 80% of that below 2,000 rpm.

Chris