Grapple cylinders

   / Grapple cylinders #31  
Yes, Hawk...I have a 4in1 and also a root grapple...both made by WRLong. I also have the WRLong electric over hyd valve. It's a great setup.

Redbug,
Yes, I agree. I have had the same setup on my last 3 tractors. I have been very pleased with my WRLong products and my dealings with them. There's some good folk there at WRLong. When I was in NC, I actually was able to take my tractor up there and let them custom build the 4-in-1 bucket and grapple on site. I had a grey market yanmar at the time and they did not have the loader specs on file. They told me to bring the tractor to them. A week later I had my stuff. They even gave me a tour of the facilities. When I upgraded to my John Deere, I made sure that a WR Long grapple was part of the deal. My next purchase will be a set of pallet forks. I found that with the open bottom grapple, I do not really need a 4-in-1 bucket. Attached are some picturs of the 4-in-1 I had made for my Yanmar FX32 and Root Rake for my Mitsubishi MT4201D. The root rake was the single jaw type. Very good with brush and handling large logs. But, with stumps, small logs, and debris, it was limited. This link is me using the dual jaw open bottoom grapple.

Using WR Long Open Bottom Grapple - YouTube
Hawk
 

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   / Grapple cylinders #32  
Well. If you want to split hairs ... bringing a human thumb into it is not an accurate idea. It would be a better way to look at it as your four fingers opposing the palm of your hand. That is what a grapple really represents. Your palm being the lower part of the grapple and the fingers are operated independently as the jaws.

Pick up a stick and each finger closes down the same amount. Pick up a handful of larger pebbles and it is likely that each finger will close slightly different amount. Then tape your index and middle fingers and your ring and pinky fingers together. That will give the two jaw grapple and then tape them up all up to represent the single jaw. See how many pebbles you can pick up with each method.

Make the same idea out of steel and operate the fingers by hydraulic cylinders will become a grapple. Engineering and REASONABLE NEED decides the reasonable number of opposing jaws.

If you really want to stick the thumb in there, the accurate way is to tape up all your fingers and render them immobile. Bring your thumb down onto them and you have a single jaw grapple. Try to pick up the same rocks ... then imagine if you had another thumb...

I think you have this upside down. We tend to use our thumbs, not our fingers, to secure loads. We lift typically with weight in the palm (finger side) of the hand. The thumb, just like a upper grapple jaw, is used primarily to steady the load. Think fingers as lower tines. Scoop and object, secure it with a single thumb, then lift and move. No need to complicate life by taping fingers together.;)

Your haven't given an example of "REASONABLE NEED" to justify having two upper jaws. I posted a number of photos earlier which I hope help disspell the silly notion that a single upper jaw cannot handle irregular or asymmetric shaped loads. Hogwash. The only benefit I can see for two grapple upper jaws is either to carry lots of very small stuff like construction debris (this is why skidsteer grapples are built with two), or if you have a very wide (>60 inch grapple). As there is simply no good reason to have a very wide grapple on a CUT, I'll stick by my original point that a single upper jaw is ideal for most (vast majority) of uses. If you are using a skidsteer in construction your mileage may vary. Nobody I know who purchased a 48 inch single upper jaw grapple for a CUT has complained that they cannot grasp odd objects or that they wish they had purchased a more expensive heavier grapple with two jaws. Keep it simple.
 
   / Grapple cylinders #33  
Hawk...You look like you have the same type of grapple as me.
 

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   / Grapple cylinders #34  
Your haven't given an example of "REASONABLE NEED" to justify having two upper jaws.

It was explained in this thread by others. You came up with a good reasonable need on your own.
 
   / Grapple cylinders #35  
Hawk...You look like you have the same type of grapple as me.

Redbug,
Yep, sure is. When I sold the Mistsubishi however, I sold the root rake with it. Same with the 4-in-1 bucket. I let that go with the Yanmar when I sold it as well. Looks like you get quite a bit of use out of yours:thumbsup:

Hawk
 
   / Grapple cylinders #36  
It was explained in this thread by others. You came up with a good reasonable need on your own.

Well, not really. I just reviewed the thread (and discovered that I must have posted photos of my single jaw carrying asymmetric objects someplace else). There are only a couple of references to what I double jaw grapple on a root grapple can do differently. I don't have any trouble doing these things with a single grapple though.

1) grab around a bush or grab a tree limb. Doesn't count in my book. Single jaw grapples are narrow so it is actually easier to maneuver close to trees and bushes. I've never had trouble getting either one bush or leaving one bush alone while grappling other stuff. I can grab any limb I can reach (not a very safe way to trim trees though).

2) clamps harder. Not sure this is true but if it is it is irrelevant. The upper jaw in a root grapple just holds the material in place. The weight is all on the bottom tines. Based on the discussion it sounds like dual grapples clamp with exactly the same force anyway. (this is true for root grapples, a "clamshell" grapple operates on a different principle and by definition has only one upper jaw but the clamping force is the only thing holding the load, gravity is your enemy with a clamshell but your friend with a root grapple).

3) the taped finger confusion. You and KubotaKid like this analogy but as I noted, it is upside down. We don't clamp with our fingers, we clamp with our thumbs. Watch a baby learn to grasp. First they scoop and then they learn to use their thumb to pick up Cheerios etc. We are different from the apes because we have an opposable thumb not because our fingers move independently.

4) the most common reason given is the completely false notion that single upper grapples cannot clamp on irregular or assymmetric objects. That is just plain wrong. I'll post some photos below to show you what you can easily clamp in a single jaw grapple. I don't know where this myth comes form but it is flat out wrong. Why to professional excavator operators use a single grapple jaw?

5) construction debris. yes, this is a reason for double full length upper jaws but probably needs a bucket grapple or very tight bottom tines too. I consider this to be a special purpose item for skid steers and not something that is typically done with a CUT mounted grapple.

6) some folks say firewood. Well, I don't think of a grapple when I think of cut firewood. A bucket makes much more sense. Either two or one upper arm would have little effect on wood falling though the bottom. If you neatly stack it in the grapple then either one or two upper jaws would hold it in place as the weight is really on the lower tines anyway.

To reiterate, the advantages of a single upper jaw include lower cost, less weight and the "automatic" centering of weight. Double jaw grapples might have special uses but my point is that the vast majority of grapple functions are done easily with one. The reason most people have two upper jaws is that the dealer sold them a wide grapple designed originally for skid steers. Tractor dealers are notoriously bad at understanding how a CUT grapple is used and almost always over sell (heavier, wider, more expensive etc). Think about the demolition excavators that use single jaws. Those are very expensive pieces of equipment and they could put anything on the end of the boom they want. What do they use? Narrow single jaw grapples!
 

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   / Grapple cylinders #37  
We have found the single claw grapple wear less in the pin/bushing areas and have more flex, see close up photo of oblong holes from a dual cylinder JD grapple. This is in reference to a style grapple that spans the top of the bucket.

The grapples with two (independent) acting teeth on the top are much better for handling lop sided and bulky loads like trees/brush - it lets you get a better- more secure grip on what you're handling.

Another option is a cylinder-less grapple - a economical solution for compacts that don't have the 3rd function hydraulic capability (yellow brushcrusher units). By dropping the bucket you increase capacity and stability of the tractor/loader. You can also get right into the center/bulk of the load you are trying to grab instead of pushing it around the yard with a bucket and getting half the topsoil in your burn pile.

The skid loader photo shows a independent grapple with protected cylinders in the teeth - eliminates chance of knicking rams and blowing hoses. www.brushcrushers.com
 

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   / Grapple cylinders #38  
The grapples with two (independent) acting teeth on the top are much better for handling lop sided and bulky loads like trees/brush - it lets you get a better- more secure grip on what you're handling.]

Why to people keep reporting this myth? As noted earlier, professional excavators and loggers use SINGLE jaw grapples. The physics are simple: the load rests on the bottom tines. All the upper jaw does is lock it in place. Think of your thumb when you pick up a piece of wood. You rest the wood in your palm and clamp it with one thumb.
 
   / Grapple cylinders #39  
IslandTractor,
You have posted some great photos of your tractor and what can be done with a one jaw grapple. We always like to see tractors in action. Thanks! On the other hand, one way to win an argument is to flood the discussion with a bunch of irrelevant info. You are indeed doing a great job of that too:confused: Dealers, skidsteers, and demolition contractors have little or nothing to do with the discussion. The OP just wanted to know some advantages of the single jaw and the double jaw grapples. Jake98's photo in the 2nd post just about sums it up. Again, you have some great photos. However, I think what we'd all like to see now is a photo of you grabbing two rocks (or any objects) of different sizes simultaneously with your single jaw. Truthfully speaking, that may be just about the only advantage the dual indepedent jaws have over the single. I do think that one jaw in the middle is easier to use than the upper jaw being the same width as the lower. I wish I had known of that option when I bought my first root rake. Also, a few of us stated up front that we did not want to use the word 'better (or superior)'. One is just 'more effective' at certain tasks than another and has some advantages over the other. Standing by for the photo...;)

Hawk
 
   / Grapple cylinders #40  
Why to people keep reporting this myth? As noted earlier, professional excavators and loggers use SINGLE jaw grapples. The physics are simple: the load rests on the bottom tines. All the upper jaw does is lock it in place. Think of your thumb when you pick up a piece of wood. You rest the wood in your palm and clamp it with one thumb.


I think it matters more what is on the bottom (thumb) of the grapple. We see this every day in the ag market. Farmers who try to use their hay grapple to handle trees and logs... they don't get the best results. The top teeth are too wide and rigid to conform around the load. I should clarify my statement refers to a single rigid grapple over 50" wide mounted to the top rail of a solid bucket with sides (not bottom tines). What you have is on the same lines as our large BC-8800 unit - I'd say you'd get a little more of a secure lock on the load with two jaws, but I think you could make either work.
 

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