Help choosing the right dozer.

[DarinRay]

Uhhhh excuse me Ed? "First, dealers and those selling the equipment lie about wear. Don't even waste your time asking, it wont be the truth." WOW normally I like to read what you post but dang. Come on thats like saying that all general contractors lie about structural stability when building your home so get a engineering degree to watch over them.


Darin

 

[DarinRay]

Shoot that an easy question. Get the Deere dealer mechanic to go to the Cat dealer and visa versa. You will get the real inspection too because each will put the other machine down to get you to buy from them.

darin

 

[tlbuser]

All the adds I see talk about % undercarriage. I understand that 70% undercarriage means that there is 70% wear left. But how does that translate into how many hours I could expect to put on the machine before major repairs to the undercarriage are needed?

The two big variables there are usage and conditions. Sand is tough on tracks, but rock is really bad too. for a farm or "homeowner" use, 70% might be a lifetime. Tracks can be shortened and pins and bushings turned to extend out the tracks life-cycle. This site a a pretty good "what to look for" wear guide, Crawler Heaven - Construction Equipment Parts in Palmyra, NY - The Source for All of Your Bulldozer Parts Needs.

Why not buy a crawler loader (preferably with a 4n1) instead of a dozer? IMO, would be much more useful in the long run.

 

[EddieWalker]

Uhhhh excuse me Ed? "First, dealers and those selling the equipment lie about wear. Don't even waste your time asking, it wont be the truth." WOW normally I like to read what you post but dang. Come on thats like saying that all general contractors lie about structural stability when building your home so get a engineering degree to watch over them.


Darin

Darin,

I apologize and didn't mean that, the way it reads.

Let me try again because I realize that a blanket statement like that wasn't true, and my intent was not to characterize everyone who sells used equipment as dishonest.

When looking at used equipment, and especially tracked equipment, the buyer should aproach it with extreme sceptisism on the ratings offered. You'll hear all versions of how good it is, to the blanket, he don't know anything about it, when talking to the sales guys.

I personally find it very dificult to believe what I'm told and paid for an old timer to come along with me when looking at machines. He has been moving dirt since the 40's and has a small fleet of eqipment himself, so I felt it was worth the money to pay him for his opinion.

In every case, his opinion varied greatly to the guy selling the dozer, or the saleman on the lot. We would laugh at some of them and there versions of why the dozer is in really good shape except for the small, inexpensive fix that is needed. Oh yeah, you can't drive it like itis, but spend a few bucks and it will be good as new. He's just too busy to do it himself. Anybody want to guess how many times I heard that story or a version of it?

And yes Darin, ALLOT of contractrs lie about what they build and how strong it is. I have a list of clients that I work for who have hired others to build or repair something on their house and it's falling apart. Both of the contractors that I'm getting this from have been building custom homes in the area for years. The corners that they cut to save a buck just make my head spin. If I was to hire a contractor, I wouldn't trust him either. There are just too many out there who are drunks, alchohalics and gamblers. Some have the skills, but are too in over their heads with personal issues to be able to do a good job anymore. This is true for the vast majority of those in the trades. It's also what keeps me in business and how I make a good part of my living.

Again, sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention.

Eddie

 

[meadowlarkponds]

Jeff244,

As Eddie mentioned, I have a Case 450C and have used the heck out of it. For general ranch work, I think it is a fine machine....however for pond building, it is marginal and really only applicable to small ponds of less than 1/2 acre.

Not only is it slow going, but it also has very low relative compaction which is useful in some things, but not building larger ponds. I used mine on renovating a couple of ponds including expanding one old 1/4 acre pond into a 2 acre pond. It took a long time and I used a back-hoe/front-end loader to move a lot of the dirt. (that renovation experience is documented on my web site under "Walden" pond).

The most important use I've made of the 450 is in clearing 70 acres of 5-year regrowth clear-cut land. It really did a nice job on that project. Most of the re-growth was 6 inches diameter or less and it handled that stuff fine....larger trees would be a problem. Today that 70 acres is beautiful pasture land.

So, without further rambling, I'd summarize by saying that the 450c is a good general land maintenance machine, but not well suited for larger ponds and/or larger trees.

One key to any used dozer is the availability of parts and if you aren't into mechanic work, the availability of a good repair mechanic. Here is where the 450C was a good choice for me...parts readily available and a great mechanic just 10 miles away. The 450 can be loaded on relatively small trailers and pulled into the shop with a good heavy duty pick-up.....an act which I performed many times. Hiring a large dozer to be moved for repairs it very expensive.

Repairs themselves are not only expensive, they are frustrating because they cost you time. I can't emphasize enough the importance of readily available parts and skilled mechanic...and a large checkbook helps also. Undercarriage = $$$. It isn't do it yourself repairs either. Smaller machines generally are less expensive to rebuild the undercarriage, but even at that, I spent over $3k on mine after clearing the 70 acres and it was in relatively good shape when I bought it and started out.

In spite of the repairs and expense, I love having a small dozer for general ranch work. Without it, I'm not sure how long I'd be able to do all the maintenance...its like having a full work crew at your disposal. Good luck!!
.

 

[DarinRay]

See and there you go again with a post that is a pleasure to read. seriously I was not offended but didn't want that left blank because then people may think "I" lie about conditions of my machines if I didn't say this. You or anyone else don't have to believe me but seriously my mechanic makes fun of me sometimes with the information that I tell people when trying to sell them something. It is like I put the machine down where and if it has issues and sometimes it does hinder a sale but I don't really care to hide things that I "KNOW" of. Of course there are problems sometimes but to this day I haven't got my butt kicked or threatened by customers because I do try to make things right. But anyway this is starting to sound toooooooo much like a sales pitch.

I do appreciate your response and do understand exactly what you mean and say. You must be able to type FAST with all the posts that are in detail. Loved the building lake one. WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW what a job.

Darin

 

[hayden]

I'm certainly not an expert but will offer up the little bit I've learned owning a dozer for a few months and 50 hrs or so of use. I've got a Cat D5G which is about 100HP (maybe 90 - I can't remember), weights 20,000 lbs, and has a Hydro transmission.

I love the Hydro transmission. Any numbskull like me can operate it.

I'm glad I didn't get anything smaller. The D5 can do amazing stuff, but as Eddie described, you can quickly load up the blade and find yourself struggling to push it. Yet it's still small enough to be maneuverable and fit in tight areas.

It sure doesn't burn 5 gal per hour - I'd guess between 1 and 2 depending on how hard you are working it.

Definitely get a 6-way blade. I can't imagine working without the tilt.

I bought a pretty new machine with low hours (2006 with 1000 hrs), so it cost a bundle, but I figure it will have good resale value when I'm done with it. I also hope it will be more dependable. We'll see if this approach works in the long run.

Good luck.

 

[Jeff244]

DarinRay,

"Get the Deere dealer mechanic to go to the Cat dealer and visa versa. You will get the real inspection too because each will put the other machine down to get you to buy from them." Good one, I had a good laugh. It is a good idea too. I would love to get the salesman fighting to get me a good deal too.
"It is like I put the machine down where and if it has issues and sometimes it does hinder a sale but I don't really care to hide things that I "KNOW" of." That sounds so much like my dad. He sells antique pedal tractors and whenever he shows me one all he does is point out whats wrong with them even though they look perfect to me. I was going to deliver one for him a few weeks ago for a site unseen sale. He spent 20 minutes pointing out the flaws in it and kept stressing that if the person that was buying it didn't like it there was no obligation to buy it. That's why people trust him. Too bad I don't live closer to you.

tlbuser,

Thanks for the link.
"Why not buy a crawler loader (preferably with a 4n1) instead of a dozer? IMO, would be much more useful in the long run." I had considered that but a lot of the trails and roads that I want to cut in are on hills. Most of them will be sideways on the hills. It should be easy to just tilt the dozer blade to level out the areas as I am cutting them in. It's doable with a loader, but much more difficult.

meadowlarkponds,

As mentioned in my original post, I was going to look at a case 450, but now I am looking for something a little bigger. I've looked at your website(great site), it's amazing all the work you did with your machines. I guess I will have to think if names for my current and hopefully future ponds.

Eddie,
I've been reading more of your posts lately. I have one question, do you ever sleep? It's amazing how much you accomplish as well as taking time to post . Every time I am bush hogging my trails or riding the atv around I think of new projects to do, when I get the dozer hopefully I will actually get something done.
As far as contractors go, I ran an asphalt contracting business for about 20 years. I think asphalt contractors in general cheat as much or more than most. By laying 1.5" instead of 2" they could save hundreds or thousands of dollars in materials and the customer wouldn't know until a few years later when it failed. I have had people show me bids for a job from other contractors that were for less than the cost of the materials. I would never bad mouth another contractor but I would give the people the phone numbers of the suppliers and the quantities of materials and have them call and find out what the material costs were. I remember when I was about 20 years old my dad telling me that if I was ever going to cheat someone I better make enough money that I never had to work again. His point being, without a good reputation, you will not stay in business. Sorry for the ramble, I guess I am in the mood for reminiscing tonight.

hayden,

I would love to say that I would love to buy a newer machine and plan to sell it, but I know I will never sell it. I notice that when I am looking at used equipment on dealers sites, I always end up looking at the machines that are way out of my range. A cab and ac would be great! Have you operated much equipment before buying your D5? It just seems so big to me, but I am comparing it to a 1967 JD 450 loader that I used years ago.


Jeff

 

[hayden]

hayden,

I would love to say that I would love to buy a newer machine and plan to sell it, but I know I will never sell it. I notice that when I am looking at used equipment on dealers sites, I always end up looking at the machines that are way out of my range. A cab and ac would be great! Have you operated much equipment before buying your D5? It just seems so big to me, but I am comparing it to a 1967 JD 450 loader that I used years ago.


Jeff

My wife doesn't think I'll ever sell the dozer - she's probably right, but the notion of resale value helped justify a newer machine.....

I had never run a dozer before getting the D5, but I picked up loader and backhoe operation quickly when I first started using them so I wasn't too worried. I've seen some super skilled operators and I'm not one of them, but I can do an OK job with it.

Initially it did seem huge, but my experience with tractors is that they seem huge when you first get them and get progressively smaller every day you use them. Applying that experience, I decided to go on the large end of the range I was considering. I was looking at D3, D4, D5 models, and Deere 450, 650, and 850 (I think I recall the Deere models correctly, but they are roughly equivalent to the Cat models). After using the D5 for a few projects, it no longer feels so huge, in fact it feels just right. Most tasks it does handily, and others I have to really work it - that feels like the right size machine to me.

Folks here on TBN repeated over and over how important a near-by dealer is, and after reading about various repair efforts, I totally get it. With that advice, I ended up focusing on Cat over Deere because there is a large dealer (they cover MA, NH, VT,ME, and NY) with locations reasonably convenient to me. It's still a good hour drive, but one location I drive right by going back and fourth between NH and VT.

So far I'm very happy with the choice.

 

[rutwad]

I have no professional input due to very limited dozer use. I did run a JD 650 about 3-4 yrs. ago for some general dirt/grade work and I thought it worked wonderfully. Nice power and easily capable of pushing up a few pecan trees.

Later I spent some time on a JD 9520 scraper tractor and worked along with a Komatsu D61. When I climbed on the JD650 then, I would have bet anything that it was definitely a lot smaller than the 650 I was on a few yrs. back. Here the 650 seemed small and underpowered.

So I guess I am trying to say it all depends on what you compare it to. I feel certain that if a 450 or D3 were the first dozer I operated, they would have been more than adequate. But stepping down from bigger toys makes me feel like the smaller dozer is too small.

Something I heard and maybe someone that actually knows can correct- backing a dozer wears the undercarriage faster than forward. Seems to me like it would be the same. Anyone know?

Have you considered renting? Mostly late model equipment and no break-downs to repair. You could rent larger equipment and drastically cut your time. You may even rent different equipment for different tasks to help.