thanks guys. no it is not tame. been seeing them around. even saw a white one a few winters ago got pictures somewhere. as far as the cylinder being over kill wanted to make sure it would lift what ever i put in it. had a 2" cylinder on it and it wouldnt even lift a half load of wood. so i went overkill!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif i think i could lift my house now /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif