how can northern tools compete against harbr freight?

[cqaigy2]

Lets go with a set of 13 deep 1/2" drive SAE impact sockets.
Napa wants $73 for the set (no warranty): NAPA AUTO PARTS
Harbor Freight wants $22 for the set (lifetime warranty): 13 Piece 1/2" Drive SAE Deep Wall Impact Socket Set

Aaron Z


Except hf lifetime warranty is only on products they still sell. I broke a box end wrench that had a "lifetime warranty" took it to the store for replacement and the manager said, sorry hf no longer stocks that tool so no go. Till i complained rather loudly about what good was a lifetime warranty if you can't get a tool replaced when it breaks.

 

[aczlan]

Except hf lifetime warranty is only on products they still sell. I broke a box end wrench that had a "lifetime warranty" took it to the store for replacement and the manager said, sorry hf no longer stocks that tool so no go. Till i complained rather loudly about what good was a lifetime warranty if you can't get a tool replaced when it breaks.

Last time I checked, some warranty is better than no warranty and if it is functionally identical for less than 1/3 the cost (and I have enough sockets that having one break wont cost me a paycheck)... Why not spend $22 for the same set? I can see spending the extra money if you are running a mobile service truck, but for me as a homeowner? Not gonna happen. I can drive to the store and back for less than the $51 difference in price (and I can get some more of what my wife calls "junk you dont need" while I am at it)

Aaron Z

 

[JoeBuyer]

Let me see, they can put a man in space and build virtually all the products of our most valuable company (Apple)... Is there an explanation other than racism or wingnut political philosophy to explain your chauvinist view?

China can manufacture many of the things they do because private enterprise in the US (and other countries) sent the manufacturing there and likely got special tax US tax breaks doing it. It is sad and I am not knowingly going to support it. Why would you support a country that treats its people the way they do?

 

[foggy1111]

Interesting thing about socialist countries such as china. If a manufacturer needs to tool-up for a commodity-type item (say a pipe wrench).....the socialist government will pay the tooling costs and the "nationalized" tool is then "community property". Anybody is able to buy those items and put their label on it (Vs proprietary tooling (Apple / Milwaukee that is owned by those firms). Thus often you have many labels on the same "made in china" products.

When I manufactured things....my USA made products were shown in Taiwanese "chop shops" just waiting for a competitive American firm to give an order to the company who would knock my products off and re-brand them. And they did....patents and intellectual values be damned....not to mention my profits. Why should I or any American firm want to invest in producing new products in America???.....when after putting all the work into a product the Asians will knock it off for less and sell it to the competition? :confused2:

Yep the consumer gets a deal....while our economy goes broke....and no business is left to pay the taxes. Tell me how this is a good deal for our country?? :confused2:

And.....we wonder where our high paying jobs went? Duh!

 

[Soundguy]

If you are looking for a HF near you, I would think the one in Ocala out on 40 (Silver Springs Blvd ) in the Publix Shopping center would be much closer then Casselberry.

notice i said 'next' closest one. IE.. the hf in ocala is the closest one.

last time i was looking for a large item that was out of stock was a tire changer.. and when i looked at the map the casselberry store was the next closest one. mind you it's been a couple years since i bought the tire tchanger so..

 

[Soundguy]

Let me see, they can put a man in space and build virtually all the products of our most valuable company (Apple)... Is there an explanation other than racism or wingnut political philosophy to explain your chauvinist view?

yep.. most apple products are made there now. the apple assembly facility there has a clean room setup like most other industry standard clean rooms.

 

[Soundguy]

Interesting thing about socialist countries such as china. If a manufacturer needs to tool-up for a commodity-type item (say a pipe wrench).....the socialist government will pay the tooling costs and the "nationalized" tool is then "community property". Anybody is able to buy those items and put their label on it (Vs proprietary tooling (Apple / Milwaukee that is owned by those firms). Thus often you have many labels on the same "made in china" products.

When I manufactured things....my USA made products were shown in Taiwanese "chop shops" just waiting for a competitive American firm to give an order to the company who would knock my products off and re-brand them. And they did....patents and intellectual values be damned....not to mention my profits. Why should I or any American firm want to invest in producing new products in America???.....when after putting all the work into a product the Asians will knock it off for less and sell it to the competition? :confused2:

Yep the consumer gets a deal....while our economy goes broke....and no business is left to pay the taxes. Tell me how this is a good deal for our country?? :confused2:

And.....we wonder where our high paying jobs went? Duh!

unfortunately.. at this point.. no way to change it.

either we stop inventing things.

or we start opening manufacturing palnts here.

to do that. organized labor needs to take a step back and re-examnie america.

govt needs to take a step back and re-examine america.

then they both need to look at the world market.

the sleeping giant's awake now.. and he's not tired anymore...

in ww2 we were the sleeping giant of the military power.

china's the sleeping giant of industrial manufacturing right now... and he's had a good rest and is now ready to build... cheaply. others have been so concerned about collective barganing that labor prices to make a widgit went so high that plants closed and the cheap giant can knock our socks off.

sad state of affairs.

we, as a country, are not ready to 'tool up' if we needed to.

we are not ready to turn out our own durable goods, as needed, when needed.

we still have alot going for us.. but if we keep kicking ourself in the buts.. we will loose that edge too.

believe it!

 

[3930dave]

Well put Soundguy.

You didn't touch on present day military status - that situation will/does get more attention (rightly so, long term) than Manufacturing being abdicated by our Western countries (exc. Germany, IMO).

Correct Foggy - my post #69 oversimplified and omitted a few things about China, that have also contributed to their success. You've hit on some aspects in your recent post of why their Command Economy has been able to virtually decimate Manufacturing world wide. Having lots of poor people in a given country does not directly translate to successful manufacturing - amortizing a design across an entire country, and freely stealing intellectual property at will are great ways to add to a companies bottom line.

Unfortunately for us (Western workers), the communist system provides a very efficient backbone/structure for organizing and deploying vast quantities of cheap labour. Many countries have large pools of cheap labour, but if the overall landscape in a low cost country is chaotic, with essentially civil war ongoing or about to break out, then global corporations aren't about to partner/fund a factory in said country.

We are now at a stage where other countries have serious concerns about China's external military plans (I'm not talking about their "traditional" oppressed neighbours). In decades past, the might of the Chinese military has been used internally to oppress/control/discipline the Chinese labour force - primarily to the benefit of the Communist party elites, and the Western corporations they do business with. How many thousands of Chinese citizens were murdered to optimize profits unfortunately gets swept under the rug, and may end up being dwarfed by what happens if/when China decides to flex it's military might externally, beyond historical boundaries.

While China Inc was running around the world, violating every law possible to drive down the cost of manufactured goods, did our governments honestly think that they would NOT rip off every bit of military technology and IP that they could get their hands on ? One of the reasons we are at this juncture is that China was underestimated. People, and our governments, should have been cognizant of the fact that we are dealing with a culture that maintains written plans that span years, decades, and even centuries. Compare that perspective to our Western Wall Street timelines, and think long about that - is it any wonder who's winning this game ?

That our Western governments have been complicit, for decades, in this global rape and pillage of the Manufacturing sector is extremely offensive to me. In another time, this would have been regarded as behaviour of Quislings.

Today, unfortunately, the only assessment is made on the bottom line of a P/L statement. There is a cost to everything - focusing exclusively on price ($) for the last 30 years or so has created consequences, some of them have and will continue to change the world dramatically.

My post #69 was rather terse. I'm now back in my usual verbose mode ! :laughing:

Rgds, D.

 

[IslandTractor]

Interesting thing about socialist countries such as china. If a manufacturer needs to tool-up for a commodity-type item (say a pipe wrench).....the socialist government will pay the tooling costs and the "nationalized" tool is then "community property". Anybody is able to buy those items and put their label on it (Vs proprietary tooling (Apple / Milwaukee that is owned by those firms). Thus often you have many labels on the same "made in china" products.

When I manufactured things....my USA made products were shown in Taiwanese "chop shops" just waiting for a competitive American firm to give an order to the company who would knock my products off and re-brand them. And they did....patents and intellectual values be damned....not to mention my profits. Why should I or any American firm want to invest in producing new products in America???.....when after putting all the work into a product the Asians will knock it off for less and sell it to the competition? :confused2:

Yep the consumer gets a deal....while our economy goes broke....and no business is left to pay the taxes. Tell me how this is a good deal for our country?? :confused2:

And.....we wonder where our high paying jobs went? Duh!

Copy rights and patents are violated in a number of ways. As you point out, in developing countries, they are often just ignored as the local government doesn't enforce international rules. In more sophisticated countries we hire lawyers to invalidate or skirt patents. It is not a Chinese or Chicom exclusive. India is another big time abuser these days.

We did and do much the same. In our colonial and post revolutionary days we were every bit as guilty in how we competed with England by copying their inventions and making cheaper copies. The number of knock off or near knock off tools and equipment made in the US that had their origins in Germany or other innovative counties undermines the complaint that China is ripping us off. Everyone does it and always has. Sometimes it is blatant and sometimes subtle but it is a very old story and we have been on both sides. I'm sure the Chinese are still pissed that we copied their formula for gunpowder!

 

[3930dave]

I wouldn't pretend that our companies here are choirboys, far from it in many cases.

BUT, look at the macro level.

In China, Intellectual Property theft is totally the Rule, rather than the Exception. The penalty for NOT stealing is perceived as Leaving Money on the Table. Correct, in their system.

IP "borrowing" goes on in the West, and as you have pointed out IsleTrac, has for a long time. The difference here, is that there are legal protections and remedies available. Large sums of money have been recovered by the original developers in many court cases.

Effectively, as the Chinese operate under no meaningful Legal system, our IP laws here have been seriously eroded. I agree with Foggy, why would a Western company pour R&D money into projects just to get their IP ripped off by a country that Plays By No Rules ?

The Manufacturing plants have been mostly eradicated here in the West. Our Elites and "Leaders" will contend that we have retained the "high value design activity" - that is just Whistling Past the Graveyard at best, pure BS at worst.

Rgds, D.