more power

[RobJ]

I hope someone tries it and reports here, as there
have been several posters threatening to do the same.

It would be interesting to see someone do it to. On paper it looks good but is it really worth all the trouble. Assuming you want more power in a work tractor, you take a 35hp tractor and make it a 50hp tractor but it can't put any of it to the ground. IMO you've gained nothing but a cool sounding engine.

And then you have how to test the new turbo. I'm sure folks would say it "feels" more powerful (remember we are talking about a 35hp tractor). The engines I rebuilt we ran them on a water brake dyno. If they were on a gen set we ran the gen set in a water tank to load it. Even in a car/truck you can run it down the quarter mile or a floor dyno and see what you've done. Hard to tell on a 15mph tractor, until parts built for 35hp start breaking under load.

 

[Soundguy]

While you might get some bonus pto hp available... you have to figure they sized the pto for a 35hp tractor.. and it may not transmist the hp of a 50hp tractor.. not to mehntion the implement that normally runs on a 50hp tractor may be big and unsafe on a smaller tractor.

If the subject was jumping a 70hp gear tractor up to 90.. then not as much probelm.. already a larger framed tractor with heavier gear.. etc.

Soundguy

 

[dfkrug]

Dave, a higher hp engine will produce no more flow and no more power to the wheels than a lower hp engine if their rpm is the same. If the engine bogs down on a lower hp engine, of course it will produce less flow.

....and why does an engine bog down? Not enough power to produce
the flow demand. If power were not important, why doesn't your
tractor have a 2hp engine? Power is about doing work. If you try
to drive your TC35 up a 10% road in HI range, it will bog down. If you
want to roto-till with a 5-footer more than 1 MPH, you will bog
down. Our 5000 lb tractors have only 35hp engines because high
power is for doing things fast. It has nothing to do with force or
traction. (My tiny 2200lb car has a 140hp engine because it takes that
kind of power to go 130MPH or accellerate quickly.)

But if the lower powered engine does not bog down, you cannot gain anything by increasing hp. That is the case with our tractors. If the TC35DA cannot maintain rpm and the engine bogs down, then there is something to be gained by increasing hp.

That's what I said if you look at my previous post.

If the engine has plenty of power to put the HST transmission into
bypass without bogging down, then a 50 hp engine will get you nothing.
I own a TC45D and I cannot use nearly all the torque and hp of that engine through the transmission. And if I'm in a situation where all wheels are spinning and I'm not making progress, all the power in the world won't make it any better without more traction.
.

Of course. Force applied to the ground is about traction, a function of
weight and friction. Gearing (thru torque multiplication) can apply enough
force for motion with the smallest of power plants. The question is how
fast do you want to go? The designers made a hp trade-off for the
amount of work they expected a particular tractor to perform.

As for examples of "enough" power, I am usually satisfied with only 30hp
from my Kioti CK30, but I do not do ground-engaging work, and fast travel
uphill is rare. I bought a CK20 last year and with inplements, it can not
propel its own weight in M range up ANY kind of slope. Needs more power
for that activity if one wants to go more than 2MPH.

If I was wanting to turbo-charge a TC35, I'd go get a gear tractor and figure how to get more traction at the wheels. Maybe dual rears or increasing weight. A TC35DA with HST transmission is a bad, bad choice of tractors for an engine hp increase of any significant amount.

If I wanted to do a turbo, I think I'd take the TC35DA down to a NH dealer and trade it in on a TC48. Then I'd turbo the TC48 to get the power of the TC55. The gear driven transmission will produce much more satisfactory results.

I don't know why you say that. There are 100hp tractors that use
HSTs and turbos....look at some of those nice Case construction
machines. Any decent manufacturer will make a gear box robust
enough to handle the engine that comes with it, plus a big safety
margin. It would not surprise me at all if the TC35DA shared the same
gearbox with the TC40 and 45, based on the published weights.
The main diff seems to be the 3 cyl vs 4cyl engine.

There is no question that HSTs are less efficient than conventional
gear trannies, esp at higher traveling speeds. (Ever notice that hi-hp
construction machines with HST are not desigend to travel very fast?)
HSTs are a trade-off for better control, not speed.

As for trading in a TC35, I am hoping someone does that around here,
as I have a standing offer with the local NH/Kub dealer to buy a broken
customer trade-in, ideally a HST TC35. BEFORE he trades it in. I have
not taken a blue tractor apart yet and it is high on my list.

 

[Soundguy]

....That's what I said if you look at my previous post.
.

Df.. in your previous post, you made the following statement:
It's easy to miss that last line where you mention bogging down

Power to the wheels thru a HST is a function of pressure (fixed by
relief valve) AND volume. A higher hp engine WILL produce more hp
at the wheels with no change in relief pressure, as it will be able to
deliver higher hydraulic flow before bogging down. HP is for doing things
quickly; forces stay the same.

However to Jim and the other posters defense..most people here were already stating that variable up front.. IE.. sufficient hp and no bogging.. thus any extra being a waste... etc.

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

If I was wanting to turbo-charge a TC35, I'd go get a gear tractor and figure how to get more traction at the wheels. Maybe dual rears or increasing weight. A TC35DA with HST transmission is a bad, bad choice of tractors for an engine hp increase of any significant amount.

If I wanted to do a turbo, I think I'd take the TC35DA down to a NH dealer and trade it in on a TC48. Then I'd turbo the TC48 to get the power of the TC55. The gear driven transmission will produce much more satisfactory results.

I don't know why you say that. There are 100hp tractors that use
HSTs and turbos....look at some of those nice Case construction
machines. Any decent manufacturer will make a gear box robust

DF.. those 100 hp trractors you refer to are big and heavy.. they weight helps put that 100hp traction to the ground. Everyone else here is saying hat the 35 is already just about enough hp to break traction in most cases.. thus mor hp don't help.. thus Jim's idea of getting a larger tractor that was heavier already.. plus perhaps then t-c'ing it.. make use of that extra weight.. then see what you can get out of it hp wise before you break traction.. etc.

My ford 850 is only 18hp less than my ford 5000.

My ford 850 is strong and light. I can loose traction when toting a large round bale of hay, if it has some moisture to it. IE.. my wheels spin.. but tractor sets there... I don't have the weight to utilize that hp. My 5000 on the other hand.. even though it has only 18 more hp, it weighs alot more.

here's the numbers

5000 has only 34% more hp than the 850
5000 has 64.5% more weight than the 850

That extra weight makes a huge difference.. the 100hp tractors in your example have weight to go with them.. something a 50hp tc35 won't have.. in fact.. the TC35 weighs in at 3357#.. that's a good weight for it's hp for not breaking traction... for reference.. my 850 weighs 3425 yet has 43% more hp than the tc35 ( And I break traction alot.. see how much all that bonus hp helps me! not.. I ca't get it to the ground. ).. in fact.. to get it to the ground i have to add nearly 1000# of ballast in tires and rear weights to use that hp and make the engine bog...

soundguy

 

[dfkrug]

DF.. those 100 hp trractors you refer to are big and heavy.. they weight helps put that 100hp traction to the ground. Everyone else here is saying hat the 35 is already just about enough hp to break traction in most cases.. thus mor hp don't help.. thus Jim's idea of getting a larger tractor that was heavier already.. plus perhaps then t-c'ing it.. make use of that extra weight.. then see what you can get out of it hp wise before you break traction.. etc.

Soundguy, you are confusing tire spinning with actually doing work. Once
tires are spinning, no work is being done, and more hp does nothing. Even
very low hp tractors are geared so that they can spin tires (lose traction)
in low gear. Where any tractor maxes out the work it can do and starts
to bog down is NOT at times when it is losing traction. I mentioned two
common situations that involve driving fast when the limits of a tractor's
hp are experienced. You can not "put that 100hp traction to the ground",
as you say. Traction is a linear force, measured in say, lbf. Hp is power,
measured in ft-lbf per sec, and lots of it is needed when doing large amts
of work.

 

[jinman]

....and why does an engine bog down? Not enough power to produce
the flow demand. If power were not important, why doesn't your
tractor have a 2hp engine? Power is about doing work. If you try
to drive your TC35 up a 10% road in HI range, it will bog down. If you
want to roto-till with a 5-footer more than 1 MPH, you will bog
down. Our 5000 lb tractors have only 35hp engines because high
power is for doing things fast. It has nothing to do with force or
traction. (My tiny 2200lb car has a 140hp engine because it takes that
kind of power to go 130MPH or accellerate quickly.)



That's what I said if you look at my previous post.



Of course. Force applied to the ground is about traction, a function of
weight and friction. Gearing (thru torque multiplication) can apply enough
force for motion with the smallest of power plants. The question is how
fast do you want to go? The designers made a hp trade-off for the
amount of work they expected a particular tractor to perform.

As for examples of "enough" power, I am usually satisfied with only 30hp
from my Kioti CK30, but I do not do ground-engaging work, and fast travel
uphill is rare. I bought a CK20 last year and with inplements, it can not
propel its own weight in M range up ANY kind of slope. Needs more power
for that activity if one wants to go more than 2MPH.



I don't know why you say that. There are 100hp tractors that use
HSTs and turbos....look at some of those nice Case construction
machines. Any decent manufacturer will make a gear box robust
enough to handle the engine that comes with it, plus a big safety
margin. It would not surprise me at all if the TC35DA shared the same
gearbox with the TC40 and 45, based on the published weights.
The main diff seems to be the 3 cyl vs 4cyl engine.

There is no question that HSTs are less efficient than conventional
gear trannies, esp at higher traveling speeds. (Ever notice that hi-hp
construction machines with HST are not desigend to travel very fast?)
HSTs are a trade-off for better control, not speed.

As for trading in a TC35, I am hoping someone does that around here,
as I have a standing offer with the local NH/Kub dealer to buy a broken
customer trade-in, ideally a HST TC35. BEFORE he trades it in. I have
not taken a blue tractor apart yet and it is high on my list.

Dave, I don't know what I've said to set you off, but since you want to remind me of what you said in a previous post, let's go back to the original post and examine my response to diesel_red_neck.

is their any aftermarket add on's to get more power out of the engine and the FEL. I bought a computer tuner for my diesel truck that adds 225 hp & its getting 1.5 -2.0 mpg better than stock. can these tractors be tuned like this. BTW its a 05 tc35 da.. thanks in advance

I said, "no." and I stick by that. There is not any aftermarket add-on that will get more power out of an engine. And there is not a computer tuner that "...adds 225 hp...." and gives better mpg than stock. And these tractors cannot "...be tuned like this." Is that statement what you have a problem with?

Then, I said that raising the hp to 50 will give nothing at the wheels. Perhaps this is what you are having trouble accepting. Frankly, I probably went a little far with that statement. You might gain a smidge at the wheels for a half-second or so until the transmission goes into bypass relief. If the TC35 engine "bogs" from 2600 rpm down to 1200 rpm as the transmission goes into bypass, the tractor is going to stop because there is no fluid going through the HST's motor. The pump is putting it all out the relief valve to the reservoir just as soon as the "bogged" TC35 engine supplies enough power to produce 5000 psi. A 50 hp engine that stays at 2600 rpm will not "bog" just as you said. But guess what? The only difference in the transmission is the amount of fluid going thru the relief valve and the amount of heat being generated is increased. That increased volume of fluid is not going through the motor. But you are right, all that power is doing work, just not useful work.

Dave, I'm talking about a specific model of tractor, the TC35DA and it's other larger "siblings," the TC40DA and TC45DA. I'm not talking about a 2 hp or 100 hp tractor. I used to think that everthing in the transmissions was identical in all three Class III NHs, but someone showed me that there are a few components in the gear portion of the tractor after the HST that are different on the TC35DA. What I am disappointed with on these tractors is that the HST is identical. If NH had made the TC35 relieve at 5000 psi, the TC40 relieve at 5500 psi, and the TC45 relieve at 6000 psi, I'd be a happy fellow. However, NH chose to limit all of these tractors to 5000 psi, probably because the transmission cannot take the higher pressure without phydical damage or overheating. I can tell you that after 1300 hours of experience on my TC45D, the engine has much more power than the transmission can use even in low-low range. The transmission easily goes into bypass and stalls while the engine can be revved with the throttle. That's with the HST pedal in the best position for maximum torque. That extra hp is not usable by the transmission.

I don't know about other tractors, but when someone says they would like to increase the TC35DA's hp by turbo. I'm going to continue to suggest that they find a better platform. A gear tractor or a larger tractor would be best.

I hope you get your TC35DA to experiment with. I'd love to have all three class III NHs together to do a completely objective test too. It would be fun and revealing. In the meantime, because of my experience, I cannot make a different suggestion than I originally did. I'm stickin' by my post. You feel strongly that you are correct and I am wrong. That's okay too. No harm done.

 

[JC-jetro]

In the meantime, because of my experience, I cannot make a different suggestion than I originally did. I'm stickin' by my post. You feel strongly that you are correct and I am wrong. That's okay too. No harm done.

Very Interesting read Jim... thanks The Pyramids were constructed without having high HP loaders, booms or cranes...they used mechanical advantages anywhere they could get and did it in a slow and controllable manner. The key to tractor hp is to be able to harvest the hp without slipping and sliding,hence shear weight, proper gearing and traction are the keys to accomplishing the task. For more pulling power one certainly needs more mass to start with coupled with more hp if needed.

JC

 

[Soundguy]

Soundguy, you are confusing tire spinning with actually doing work. Once
tires are spinning, no work is being done,

Add some ballast and you might convert tire spinning into productive work. i made that point in my last post dealing with tractor weight.

and more hp does nothing. Even
very low hp tractors are geared so that they can spin tires (lose traction)
in low gear. Where any tractor maxes out the work it can do and starts
to bog down is NOT at times when it is losing traction.

Never said it was.

I mentioned two
common situations that involve driving fast when the limits of a tractor's
hp are experienced. You can not "put that 100hp traction to the ground",
as you say. Traction is a linear force, measured in say, lbf. Hp is power,
measured in ft-lbf per sec, and lots of it is needed when doing large amts
of work.

Ok.. so you are gonna split hairs instead of come up with a practical argument.. ok by me. The rest of us here knew what i meant when i mentioned having a 100hp tractor that was ballasted correctly so as to have a happy medium of enough power to not bog down.. but enough tire traction not to slip.. with not much 'power' wasted.

You wanna sidetrack some more.. or stay on course? i got time for either

Soundguy

 

[dfkrug]

Dave, I don't know what I've said to set you off, but since you want to remind me of what you said in a previous post, let's go back to the original post and examine my response to diesel_red_neck.

I don't know why you think I am "set off"....

In terms of the OP question about an add-on to his engine to get more
power, my answer was 'yes', a turbocharger. T/Cs are added all the
time to engines and it is easier w/ Diesels vs. gasoline engines. I
support anyone who wants to try.

I think you and Soundguy are confused about the differences between
power and force. I have tried to explain what happens with hydraulic
power (a function of pressure and flow) with real-world examples.