Oil & Fuel Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac

   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac #11  
I would also be interested in Bob Rips, observations of the 20W50 (synthetic) blend. I know he states good results in the summer with less thinning. How does it seem to preform in the cold winter months?

I was thinking along the same lines in an Amsoil synthetic. I already run Amsoil in the engine.
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac #12  
J_J said:
I have noticed that some of the larger hydraulic machines such as road graders, and front loaders also use motor oils in their systems.

Not that the Bobcat Toolcat is a larger machine but the manual for it states for hydraulic/hydrostatic if Bobcat fluid is not available use 10w-30/10w-40 class SE motor oil for temperatures above 0 degrees or 5w-30 class SE motor oil for temperatures below 0 degrees.

dsb
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac
  • Thread Starter
#13  
Ok, where to start. :D

Let's start with the 10W/40 VS a 5W/50 oil. Ideally the closer you can keep the cold/hot viscosity range the better. The wider the spread requires more visosity improver additives, oils with a large viscosity spread tend to "shear" down more quickly then oils with a close viscosity range. In a perfect world your oil would only ever operate at one temperature and the only thing you would need would be a single viscosity oil like 30W or 40W. But since equipment, motors, etc. tend to start out cold and over time warm up to operating temp. a multi-viscosity oil is prefered. Multi-viscosity oils act like a lower viscosity oil at low temps and act like a thicker oil at operating temp. Synthetic oils have a greater temperature operating range and therefore need less VI additives.

So what's this mean.

Hydraulic oils are usually single viscosity like ISO 32 (SAE 10), ISO 68 (SAE 20), etc. Hydraulic systems normally operate in a rather narrow temperature range so a single viscosity fluid works fine and not needing VI additives. They tend to be the cheapest.

UTF's (Universal Tractor Fluid) on the other hand are for the most part a multi-viscosity oil. Knowing that equipment may operate anywhere from very cold to very hot requires a multi-viscosity oil to provide acceptable performance out of equipment. Otherwise in very cold temps hydraulic systems would operate very slowly and at greater preasures and in hot temps it would be to thin possibly causing a loss of hydraulic preasure.

"Do we really need the additives that real hydraulic fliud offers when synthetic motor oil is so slippery, anyway? "

That's not really the case. For the most part synthetic's are not that much more "slippery". It's a common misconception. Of all the synthetic base stocks ester would be the slickest but it is rarely used in large enough quantities to make a difference. The majority of synthetic oils are either GPIII dino based synthetic's or GPIV PAO's. Also the synthetic engine oil is still a engine oil that does not have the additives that a hydraulic oil or UTF has.

I'll touch on the additive difference in motor oils, hydraulic oils and UTF's.

Motor oils have large detergent additive packages to deal with sludge formation and to help keep these particles in suspenssion so they can be filtered out by the oil filter or drained when the oil is changed. They also have additive packages that deal with combustion byproducts (unburnt fuel), combustion gases and the acid's caused by these gases. There is a very large spectrum of additives used for anti-wear chacteristics. The only problem is that there is only so much anti-wear additives you can add to a engine oil without effecting the emission's system. ZDDP (zinc) levels have been going down in engine oils over the years due to the possibility of plugging up cat's and particluate filters.

Hydraulic oils have additive packages that are alot different than engine oils. There are anti-foam additives, greatly increased anti-wear additive levels, usually have anti-rust additives, other additives help deal with chemical breakdown caused by contaminates like water and air which cause oxidation and usually some type of seal conditioner to help protect seals.

UTF (Universal Tractor Fluids) are basically a hydraulic oil with a greatly boosted additive package. Additional additives found in UTF are greatly increased levels of extreme preasure additives to help protect gears, additives to help prevent chatter in wet clutch and wet brake systems and prevent slippage.

So which is best for a hydraulic system, specifically a Power Trac? Well, engine oils are engineered for use in engines. If they were formulated for use as hydraulic oil they would be called engine/hydraulic oil. Hydraulic oils are just that, hydraulic oils. They operate best in a narrow temperature range due to being single viscosity (except some specialty hyd oils used in industry). UTF would be my choice. It has a excellent additive package although some of the additives will serve no purpose in a hydraulic system. My understanding is that the Power Trac hydraulic systems tend to run a little on the hot side. One of the major benefit's of a UTF is that it can deal with a larger temperature range since most are multi-viscosity. The UTF fluid would offer the greatest protection and best performance characteristics of the three different types

It has been mentioned that some heavy equipment calls for motor oil or to use motor oil when hydraulic oil is not available. That's true but look at what API rating they are calling for, usually somewhere around a SE API rated oil. The older engine oils had greatly increased levels of zinc and other anti-wear additives that have been severly reduced in modern engine oils.
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac #14  
A question came to my mind as I am reading these posts; if (or when) a person changes from the original dino 10/40 oil to anything else, whether it's UTF, hydraulic oil, synthetic, etc., would there be a problem from mixing the different oil with the dino oil?

Since the oil would be changed very infrequently, and many gallons are needed, it would take a lifetime or two until all of the original oil is out of the system.

Mark H.
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac
  • Thread Starter
#15  
It shouldn't be a problem. You would be draining the majority of it when you drain the sump tank. The small amount left in the lines and pump would quickly be diluted. Even if you switch to a synthetic it should not be a problem, synthetic's readily mix with dino oil.
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac #16  
From my viewpoint it is much ado about nothing, an attempt to gild the lily.

PowerTrac would not have recommended engine oil if was going to HARM the system.

I am not concerned about performance BELOW zero degrees. When it is that cold I am going to be in the house. Regardless of how cold it is once the system is running the oil will quickly warm up. Below zero my biggest concern will be getting the thing started. So far I have trouble getting it to start below eight degrees.

If the system doesn't perform at OPTIMUM levels at below zero temperatures, don't worry. Neither will the operator. Should he be given a blood transfusion?

"The best is the enemy of the good". Enough.
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac
  • Thread Starter
#17  
I wasn't trying to imply that it would harm the system. I'm just saying for those who want the best protection for their investment that a hydraulic oil or even better yet a UTF would offer greater protection. Equipment ain't cheap and neither is repairing it.

"If the system doesn't perform at OPTIMUM levels at below zero temperatures, don't worry. Neither will the operator. Should he be given a blood transfusion? "

Nope, probably doesn't need a transfusion but I bet he could use some thermals or a cup of hot coco. :D
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac #18  
When I was working for a rental company, we carried the LeRoi brand compressors. In some units they ran light hydraulic oil, in some they ran ATF (automatic tran. fluid). Compressors ran fine on either one. Let's not forget that "hydraulic" is simply fluid powered/operated. In some instances, water would work. But let's not go there.
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac #19  
DieselPower said:
I wasn't trying to imply that it would harm the system. I'm just saying for those who want the best protection for their investment that a hydraulic oil or even better yet a UTF would offer greater protection. Equipment ain't cheap and neither is repairing it.

"If the system doesn't perform at OPTIMUM levels at below zero temperatures, don't worry. Neither will the operator. Should he be given a blood transfusion? "

Nope, probably doesn't need a transfusion but I bet he could use some thermals or a cup of hot coco. :D

I agree with what you have said. For many years I have question people over the use of motor oil as hydraulic fluid. The general consensus is that it will probably work, but not as good as a good hydraulic oil. Here in Florida, I could probably get away with a single weight synthetic hydraulic oil. Like you said, detergents in motor oil do things you don't want them to do , like mix any water that might get in the system. A good hydraulic oil will let the water go to the bottom of the tank, and not mix.

On the subject of cavitation, this is caused by excessive pressure in pumps and motors, and is not a good thing. Once the vapor barrier is broken little air bubbles form, and these little bubbles will erode the inside of the pumps and motors. You probably have heard that sound that sounds like a groan or whine, that is the sound of your pump cavitating, and you should back off what you are doing, because after that point, the pump and motors will lose efficiency. An analogy would be a ships propeller, as it turns through the water, it is designed to be efficient up to a point. After it starts to cavitate, and form bubbles on the blades, an increase in rpm probably will have little effect. and if kept in the cavitating mode, the blades will erode to the point of non-use. So, if you hear that sound using your PT, back off the power , or reduce speed, or what ever you are doing, don't be to aggressive.

Hydraulic fluid is designed for hydraulic systems, and have certain additives that are necessary for stability and longevity. Motor oils are designed for gas and diesel engines, and have additives that support that environment.

Power-Trac recommends motor oils for , lack of a better term, simplicity. There is no reason why you can not use any good hydraulic fluid. In colder areas, a single weight probably would not work. whereas in the South, or warm areas, a good single weight synthetic would be ideal. Cost is your next consideration. Look at for the long run, is it going to be worth it.
 
   / Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac
  • Thread Starter
#20  
BTDT said:
When I was working for a rental company, we carried the LeRoi brand compressors. In some units they ran light hydraulic oil, in some they ran ATF (automatic tran. fluid). Compressors ran fine on either one. Let's not forget that "hydraulic" is simply fluid powered/operated. In some instances, water would work. But let's not go there.

That's true but don't forget ATF is a form of hydraulic oil just like power steering fluid is a form of hydraulic oil.
 
 
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