New DENIS CIMAF DAF-500

[deniscimafinc]

FD-
How crucial is the flow requirement?..Now that im confused on the flow required stated in this thread ive seen 30GPM min and 25 GPM min

Sorry for the confusion. Typo error from my part 3500 psi should have been with my 25 gal/min, not 3000 psi:

30 gal/min @ 3000 psi = 52.5 hydraulic hp
25 gal/min @ 3500 psi = 51.0 hydraulic hp

Actually, you probably could run with 25 gal/min at 3000 psi (43.8 hydraulic hp), but then mostly in smaller stuff.

I guess engineers could come with an exact hydraulic power requirements in relation to the total ton of material to mulch per acre. And that could actually be used to measure the efficiency of a rotor technology... But I digress...

Note that, to describe required power, we actually need to talk about a mix of flow and pressure. On carrier spec sheets of a carrier, we always see something like "max flow" and "max pressure". But often, these are unrelated maxima. What you need to know is: what is the pressure when you get that max flow, and what is the possible flow when reaching that max pressure. These will give you a more accurate number for available hydraulic power. And how do you get that? Ask the dealer. Or ask to see flow charts. And if you have a used carrier, you can ask a good hydraulic shop to run flow tests.

Calculation of hydraulic power is :
( gal/min * psi ) ÷ 1714 = hydraulic hp

If you get your flow and pressure from the spec sheets, and the resulting hp is higher than the hp of the engine, that tells you you need to get more info.

If you get a resulting hp that is below the hp of the engine (usually around 85%-90%), then you probably have in front of you the numbers one of the few manufacturer that state the max flow *at a given pressure*.

And lastly, if we say you need "25 gal/min @ 3500 psi", it doesn't mean you have to have 3500 psi. If your machine runs at a 4000 psi, you don't have to install a pressure-reducing valve. We will adjust our machine to your carrier.


FD

 

[ClearViewGroup]

wow Fred..that was some serious tech speak...Sir Gilles wasn't involved there was he?

On a serious note, these heads are going quick, two more calls came in to me today!

 

[deniscimafinc]

Actually, I could say that Gilles and Laurent were involved in this, since I learned that from them over the past years. But I no longer need them beside me for that part.

Over time, I just found this to be highly useful to me to understand a bit more about hydraulics, and to help customers, so if it might help others, it's even better. Of course, it's probably already all there, more comprehensive and better explained, on wikipedia.org...

And good luck with all the calls, Ryan!


FD

 

[Digdeep]

Excellent information. My ASV salesman showed me some actual hydraulic numbers that they flow tested on most of the rubber track machines that use brush cutters. It was a spreadsheet that had the flows at different pressures using a flow meter. It was shocking to say the least. Some of them weren't even putting out any oil flow at their stated operating pressure listed on their brochures and all of them were seriously less than the calculated hydraulic hp. If I remember correctly ASV and CAT were the two best (I think the RC100 had about 10 hyd. hp more) and Bobcat, Case, NH and Deere were all around the same group quite a bit less than the other two. ASV even had a chart that listed the hyd temps over a certain time period with a constant load on the flow meter. It looked to be really thorough even pointing out that Bobcat's small 4 gallon hydraulic tank contributed to their much higher oil temps compared to some of the others.

 

[deniscimafinc]

It'd be nice to have that kind of information published on a dedicated website. And maybe not just for the skid steers, but for other carriers as well. That would be very useful, at least for me.


FD

 

[WestshoreConstruction]

Excellent information. My ASV salesman showed me some actual hydraulic numbers that they flow tested on most of the rubber track machines that use brush cutters. It was a spreadsheet that had the flows at different pressures using a flow meter. It was shocking to say the least. Some of them weren't even putting out any oil flow at their stated operating pressure listed on their brochures and all of them were seriously less than the calculated hydraulic hp. If I remember correctly ASV and CAT were the two best (I think the RC100 had about 10 hyd. hp more) and Bobcat, Case, NH and Deere were all around the same group quite a bit less than the other two. ASV even had a chart that listed the hyd temps over a certain time period with a constant load on the flow meter. It looked to be really thorough even pointing out that Bobcat's small 4 gallon hydraulic tank contributed to their much higher oil temps compared to some of the others.

Not to start a brand war or hi jack this thread, both my bobcats S330 and T320 both run mulchers and I have never seen the temps go into the red even with the debris screens completely covered on a 30 deg C day, I haven't had the chance to run the ASV yet but will soon. And my S330 is putting out 37-39 GPM at the attachment at 3000 psi.

P.S One of the mulchers is a DAF-180D

 

[cann mulching]

Hello Chad,

I'll let Robbie PM you to further discuss these units or the other he had in mind, but I wanted to quickly say that, no, these are not the low-flow heads. Like our DAF-180D, these have a variable displacement, axial piston Rexroth 107cc motor. So at least a good 25 gal/min at 3000 psi is needed.

The low flow heads are actually about half as high as these Gyro-Trac frames, and they have a different motor (direct drive, no belt). Unfortunately, as you know, right now, those little babies are available only to the rest of the world...


FD

Yes Robbie & I have talked about these new heads!! Thanks but still a little to pricey for me at this time!! I have to do some more research!!

 

[Digdeep]

Not to start a brand war or hi jack this thread, both my bobcats S330 and T320 both run mulchers and I have never seen the temps go into the red even with the debris screens completely covered on a 30 deg C day, I haven't had the chance to run the ASV yet but will soon. And my S330 is putting out 37-39 GPM at the attachment at 3000 psi.

P.S One of the mulchers is a DAF-180D

Don't worry. I sold Bobcats for over 8 years so I'm still partly partial to them. Didn't you turn your pump up? I personally have seen a flow meter test on a K series S300 and it wouldn't even come close to the numbers your seeing at 3000psi. The engine actually died at around 3000psi due to engine lug and the machine was only putting out about 27gpm at 2500psi. I am however still baffled why the T320 only has a plastic 4 gallon hyd resevoir.

I'm just going off of what I was told. I do have a request in to the salesman to provide me with specifics. I will post the info he gives me when I get it.

 

[Timark80]

Excellent information. My ASV salesman showed me some actual hydraulic numbers that they flow tested on most of the rubber track machines that use brush cutters. It was a spreadsheet that had the flows at different pressures using a flow meter. It was shocking to say the least. Some of them weren't even putting out any oil flow at their stated operating pressure listed on their brochures and all of them were seriously less than the calculated hydraulic hp. If I remember correctly ASV and CAT were the two best (I think the RC100 had about 10 hyd. hp more) and Bobcat, Case, NH and Deere were all around the same group quite a bit less than the other two. ASV even had a chart that listed the hyd temps over a certain time period with a constant load on the flow meter. It looked to be really thorough even pointing out that Bobcat's small 4 gallon hydraulic tank contributed to their much higher oil temps compared to some of the others.

That's funny because my 09' T320 with a bobcat(fecon)mulcher head has been running flawlessly at wfo throttle for hours on end at 90 F temps here in sunny Florida.My hydraulic temps are well within the safe zone.
One of the main reasons for buying my bobcat is having a dealer closeby and the price was waaay below the others with similar setup.

 

[WestshoreConstruction]

Don't worry. I sold Bobcats for over 8 years so I'm still partly partial to them. Didn't you turn your pump up? I personally have seen a flow meter test on a K series S300 and it wouldn't even come close to the numbers your seeing at 3000psi. The engine actually died at around 3000psi due to engine lug and the machine was only putting out about 27gpm at 2500psi. I am however still baffled why the T320 only has a plastic 4 gallon hyd resevoir.

I'm just going off of what I was told. I do have a request in to the salesman to provide me with specifics. I will post the info he gives me when I get it.

Yeah pumps are turned up and running at 2800 - 2850 rpm same as the Tak's, I have a vid on youtube search for S330 w/ Denis Cimaf mulcher and you'll see the engine almost never fluctuates, The T320 is running at 2800 too but the pressure is higher around 3600-3700, it works a bit.