New DENIS CIMAF DAF-500

[Digdeep]

Westshore and Timark I'm not trying at all to throw stones at your machine choices. I myself own a S220 AND a RC50 and have been very happy with both just as i'm sure you are with yours. I also don't pretend to be an expert in the brush cutting business, you guys would be that expert. I do think of myself as being above average when it comes to equipment kowledge especially skids and mini's since I sold them for over 8 years. I have spent a fair amount of time in the service shop although I don't claim to be a mechanic. I was only repeating the hydraulic information that was relayed to me by my ASV salesman. I admit that he is probably biased but I have also found him to be a straight shooter. He has passed on to me the hydraulic numbers that he got for the T320 and I will paste them here. I was not there for the test and all I ask is that you don't shoot the messenger. I don't know where this test was conducted only that it was done not long after the T320 released the suspension.

Results of T320 flow testing

Heat test:
Engaged high flow, 40.5 GPM, 350 psi back pressure- No load. Immediately saw hydraulic temp rapidly rising with no load. Tem increased to 150F before we applied load and was climbing.

Applied 2000 psi load:
2:15 the fan kicked to high speed. Oil temp at 220F
3:33 Oil temp 240F
4:10 hot oil temp light came on. Flow meter read 250F. T320 machine shut down automatically (engine died) before we could manually shut it down.

Flow testing:
start at 160 degrees after 15 minute cool down:
40.4 GPM @ 382 PSI
38.9 @ 1000 (22.6 hp)
36.55 @ 2000 (42.6 hp)
34.99 @ 2500 (51 HP) Maximum actual peak hydraulic hp available
31.2 @ 2750 (50 hp)
28.6 @ 2800 (46.7 hp)
26.1 @ 2900 (44 hp)
21.1 @ 3000 (36.9 hp)
13 @ 3100 (23.5 hp)
12.5 @ 3200 (23.3 hp)
11.5 @ 3300 (22.1 hp)
11.3 @ 3400 (22.4 hp)
4.2 @ 3500 (8.6 hp)
0 @ 3550 max

Temp was 242F at end of test. Flow at no load with oil hot was 39.18gpm, 292 psi back pressure


I have never seen a flow meter hooked to a T320 but I have been involved in some Bobcat flow testing for trouble shooting and I have yet to see a machine actually put out the printed flow at the printed operating pressure. I'm sure that all the other OEMs fall into the same boat. I'm sure that any of the guys here that work for DenisCimaf can attest to that without naming skid steer brands due to sensitivity. I'm also sure that they know which brands have the best cooling and "actual" hydraulic hp available at the attachment. Again, I'm not asking them to name brands as I'm sure they want to and should sell their attachments to all makes since customers make the preference.

 

[Digdeep]

The salesman explained that the heat test was conducted by turning on the high flow and placing a constant 2000psi load on the flow meter by turning the star knob until it read 2000psi and then monitoring pressure for ten minutes ensuring that the pressure stayed at 2000psi sincethe pressure would start to drop as the oil got thinner due to the increase in temperature.

I have no idea how much load a brush cutter puts on a hydraulic pump but I'm confident that it is not a constant 2000psi. Maybe intermittently but not constant so Timark80 I don't doubt that your machine runs without overheating. I think this would be a serious test of any cooling system. Not too much less than simply dead heading the hydraulics for a length of time.

 

[Robbie Hegwood]

Very good info digdeep, and very very said. Thanks for taking the time to give that info. I will say a few things.
1. Very few head manufacturers put gauges on a head on a tractor.
2. Those that can or do can't do anything about it besides changing motor size or pulley size.
3. I can tell you exactly what a tractor puts out while I'm tuning the head to the tractor.
4. And yes there are some big discrepancies, there are also some big surprises.
5. Different manufacturers have varying ways they achieve there flow and psi. and that plays a big part in the whole package as well.

Adding to what digdeep said about ASV. I spoke with an ASV big wig and they measure there flow and psi much differently than any other company. From my source and it sounds like digdeeps same info they have been "sandbagging" abit from the beginning. With over 300 ft. pds. torque they can realy drive the pumps under load.
All the Manufacturers are aware of temp problems and who is doing what on hyd.. It's the guy who imprements the solutions quicker who will keep the advantage. From my side of the fence it's very exciting to watch the evolution of the tractors. It is also fun to make one of our heads work on a tractor that most overlook.

Thanks to all the guys running these tractors daily for posting there findings so we can help the manifacturers make a better tractor. Plus if there is an improvement that can be made to our heads from this same info then that is even better.

 

[Timark80]

The salesman explained that the heat test was conducted by turning on the high flow and placing a constant 2000psi load on the flow meter by turning the star knob until it read 2000psi and then monitoring pressure for ten minutes ensuring that the pressure stayed at 2000psi sincethe pressure would start to drop as the oil got thinner due to the increase in temperature.

I have no idea how much load a brush cutter puts on a hydraulic pump but I'm confident that it is not a constant 2000psi. Maybe intermittently but not constant so Timark80 I don't doubt that your machine runs without overheating. I think this would be a serious test of any cooling system. Not too much less than simply dead heading the hydraulics for a length of time.

No offence taken here,just one small question.
Did your mechanic have the "T320" attached to a mulcher head specifically made for Bobcat(Fecon) which Bobcat has made several adjustments to ensure that it will work in "The Field"?
The T320 shows digitally exactly what the engine temp. is at all times And the hydraulic temps while the machine is in operation.
To be completely honest my engine temp. has never exceeded 180 and neither has the Hydraulic Temp while the Cutter Head was running at full song for hours at a time.
I'd be glad to demo one of your heads to see if there is that much of a difference,let me know when you are in the neighborhood.

 

[Digdeep]

No offence taken here,just one small question.
Did your mechanic have the "T320" attached to a mulcher head specifically made for Bobcat(Fecon) which Bobcat has made several adjustments to ensure that it will work in "The Field"?
The T320 shows digitally exactly what the engine temp. is at all times And the hydraulic temps while the machine is in operation.
To be completely honest my engine temp. has never exceeded 180 and neither has the Hydraulic Temp while the Cutter Head was running at full song for hours at a time.
I'd be glad to demo one of your heads to see if there is that much of a difference,let me know when you are in the neighborhood.

I think the test was conducted with a flow meter and not a muching head. As I said earlier I don't know how much pressure it takes to spin a drum on one of the heads in the market but I suspect it is only about 1000psi or so. One of the mulching head OEMs would probably know this. However, a 2000psi load is a 2000psi load whether it comes from the attachment or a flow meter. Either way the pump and engine feel it.

It sounds like you've had great luck with your machine. My buddy still sells for a Bobcat dealer up here in WI and says they still have problems with hyd. and engine temps due to the oil cooler, raditor and A/C condenser being stacked up on top of each other and clogging. The operators have taken to buying a compressor to keep them blown out. You must not have as much mulching chaff flying through the air down there in order to never see 180 on either the engine or hyd. temps. I've seen our Bobcat skids run engine temps higher than that only running cold planers without the mulching chaff flying through the air. I continue to wish you the best of luck. I'm always happy to see Bobcat's continued success even though they are no longer a US company but now owned by a govt. subsidized Asian one.

 

[Timark80]

Digdeep,
Thanks for your opinion,although it's not 100% accurate.
First of all, testing equipment that is NOT in the field only gives inaccurate results as we all know.
Hopefully most people that are in the Mulching business...,as in operating a mulcher head in real world conditions, where chips of wood,dust,leaves,etc... are constantly flying towards the machine and Intake will have the common sense to utilize the use of a very good air compressor.
If you do not blow out the radiator and other critical areas at least once every 4-8 hours you do not understand the proper way to maintain the equipment.
I guess you don't do it that way up north?
Oh,and I'm fully aware of Doosan/Bobcat.

 

[Digdeep]

Digdeep,
Thanks for your opinion,although it's not 100% accurate.
First of all, testing equipment that is NOT in the field only gives inaccurate results as we all know.
Hopefully most people that are in the Mulching business...,as in operating a mulcher head in real world conditions, where chips of wood,dust,leaves,etc... are constantly flying towards the machine and Intake will have the common sense to utilize the use of a very good air compressor.
If you do not blow out the radiator and other critical areas at least once every 4-8 hours you do not understand the proper way to maintain the equipment.
I guess you don't do it that way up north?
Oh,and I'm fully aware of Doosan/Bobcat.

Timark80 Please don't misunderstand the point that I was trying to make regarding blowing out the cooler area. I didn't say that you did or didn't blow out the same area only that it is what the operators up here are doing. In essence, it sounds like the same practices are being used.

I agree that testing in the field produces far better ideas of how equipment will perform once in production since I was fortunate to be involved many times with Bobcat engineers for field testing new machines prior to full production . But a constant 2000psi load on a hydraulic system from a flow meter is identical to a constant 2000psi load out in the field as far as the pump is concerned (a stalled drum would put a high load on the pump). As you stated (and I agree with you), I'm sure that the rest of the machine would disagree seeing as how it wouldn't have to deal with "field" conditions.

 

[ClearViewGroup]

soooo...about the DAF-500

Robbie and I should be able to offer demo's to anyone interested in the very near future...and we don't mind demo'ing on Bobcats!....or anything else for that matter!

 

[Digdeep]

Sorry. I didn't mean to strike a nerve or hijack the thread.

 

[Robbie Hegwood]

Dude, info is info and that was very informative stuff. To answer a earlier question, our free spinning head usually reads a 1000-1200 psi load. Depends a little on the carrier. Cats with lower gpm and Gehls and such with 40+. And as far as load, as soon as you touch a branch, log and in some cases dirt there is a imeddiate load. So with walking out a tree and backdragging to finish it off the tractor and head see a pretty constant load. And that load is seen while using all kind of functions on the tractor.
I bet no manufacturer really understood the load mulching tractors indure before there unit was so kindly straped to mulching head. I bet they do now!!!