No "glow" Glow Plugs

[JohnS]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

SoundGuy,

I think you are being a bit harsh on the dealer. Does JD and NH dealers do QC on parts before sending to the customer? They probably assume they are good from the manufacturer. Unless Northern has seen a high incedence of open glow plugs, which we don't know, I wouldn't expect them to test every part that leaves their shelves. Sounds to me, they sent the parts out ASAP, and was very responsive to the customer. Not something that they should be dinged for, IMHO.

 

[Soundguy]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

I'm not sure it was too harsh. As 'nice' as it was to try to get the parts to the person fast.. I don't see 'high' marks for sending out defective parts. I tend to think the responsibility falls more with the actual manufacturer.. but as we all know in business, the dealer is the 'face' the customer sees.

When I get an incorrect meal at a restaurant.. we all know it is pretty much a kitchen/chef fault.. not the waitress.. yet she is the one that has to go get it fixed.. etc.

Besides... If you pay your money ( warranty is a paid ahead item) you should expect correct working parts.. I realize we are all human and accidents / errors happen.. but in those cases.. the dealer / manufacturer needs to take the responsibility/financial burden ( and blame ).

As for qc checks on parts from the dealer? Hmm. I can't answer with any certanity.. however.. I can say I've never got a wrong/defective part from the JD NH and MF dealers I deal with locally.. Not sure what that says.

When i worked in a water meter manufacturing facility we spot checked units for calibrated flow , say 1 out of 100. However each individual unit got a blow test before being packaged. The blow test was done with air and confirmed the rotor in the meter spun and made the meter move.

We shipped out about 10k meters a day with 4 production lines. So.. qc to some degree IS possible even in hi production environments. In the 4 years I worked at that plant ( ABB ) I very seldom recall getting DOA meters back. Of the few I ever did see that were returned immediatly.. most were damaged in transit.. or had a cosmetic defect. However we did get the occasional early failure back. ( Our units carried a 2 year complete repair/replace warranty.. and a 20yr limited warranty... we built good products and stood behind them.. )

Soundguy

 

[JohnS]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

Well, I doubt that Northern sent out a known defective part. QC belongs back at the manufacturer, which at best is a sampling method. Are you willing to pay the price for 100% inspection and test of every part, that goes into the tractor and testing of the tractor? You are talking military pricing and higher. So, given your requirements, if Northern sent out an alternator, that should check all the windings and do a load test prior to shipping? I don't think that is realistic. Given this kind of expectations, I suggest you not to purchase a Jinma, from anyone.

 

[RICHARDG]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

Northern shipped me a steering arm,thingamagigy,just because I heard somewhere,that a couple had broke,free,never used it,,sent me a new hydro screen,overnight,cause when I took mine out,it had two dimed sized holes in it,free,,,they also sent me a new trans dipstick,free,,just cause I heard that some were hitting gears,,[mine wasn't],,and I wanted one for plugging and one for checking.They also paid for a new battery,,,complete reinbursal of a very good name brand. When you go to auto parts store and buy any part,,its not checked to see if it works right or not at the store,,,the manufactor is supposed to do that,,,northern don't make these tractors,or their parts,they just stock them,,,,but I bet you all one thing,,cause of this,,they will take note,,and probably do something in the positive about it,,,but one thing nobody knows but northern,,how many they sell/replace,,,I've never heard of anybody having to replace their glow plugs on any of these boards in the two years or so that I've been bothering people on them,,,the manufactor of any item is responsable for q.c.,,,the customer dictates what standards he wants,,he is q.a.,,northern may dictate that all glow plugs be tested before shipment,,,this of course could make glow plugs cost twice as much,,,so if nothern only issues/sells 12 glow plugs a year,and all but one worked,,well....... thingy

 

[Harrygoodwrench]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

Speaking from personal experience right up to today I find defective parts on equipment every day and this is stuff made right here in the good old USA.
What really annoys me is the "lack of workmanship" and this I accuse all manufacturers of, including many in my own USA companies I see.
With that said its hard to throw stones at anyone dealing with overseas parts etc. Which I might add are mostly oversees components but assembled here.
QC it seems interfers with production and that takes precidence. I'm all for quality control but its hard to expect a parts guy to guy what a Ohm check is supposed to be noetheless how to check it.
When was the last time you spoke to a "real" parts guy? There are some still around but not many.

 

[Soundguy]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Well, I doubt that Northern sent out a known defective part )</font>

I take that as a given. I'm sure if they picked up a bag with the part in it and it was cruched into powder.. they wouldn't ship it.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( QC belongs back at the manufacturer, which at best is a sampling method )</font>

I'd agree to that, mostly.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Are you willing to pay the price for 100% inspection and test of every part, that goes into the tractor and testing of the tractor? You are talking military pricing and higher. So, given your requirements, if Northern sent out an alternator, that should check all the windings and do a load test prior to shipping? )</font>

Not every part.. but at least some parts.. especially ones easy to test.

Every genny/alternator/starter I've ever bought has ahd a test tag on it or I say the rebuildre put it on the bench before handing it over.

Same with injectors. I don't recall ever having had injectors rebuilt and handed back over wiothout a pop test done on them first.

The list goes on. A part like a glow plug should be abale to be assembly line tested for go/no go with a simple continuite check. May electronic devices are checked in this manner.

I guess what we are getting down to is not to expect above average parts and qc service from an economy company. ( this isn't specifically a negative view. As you more or less point out.. the money savings comes from somewhere, and as was also pointed out.. the warranty is still covering the continued stream of defective parts that is leaving the factory.. even if it is taking a few more days to do it.. )

Rought casting don't bother me... minor parts changes, fluid changes and battery changes, and oring problems don't bother me either. I just have a hangup about being shipped a defective part. Part of this comes from my comercial background. When one of my 500,000$ pieces of cat equipment is brok down on a job.. and I order a part from cat.. I darn well expect it to arrive in working order, as I'm probably loosing 4digit income per day while the machine is down... Heck.. I expect the parts from my NH dealer for my hobby tractors to be correct too.. but then.. so far I guess I've been lucky.

Taking a step back to hobby tractoring and non comercial work, I see where this line of thinking doesn't fit in with an economy tractor that has in some cases.. hand fit parts that may not be assembly line 'identical' to other units.

Looking at the original post.. I'd give the dealer / manufacturer 'A' for effort.. but 'F' for performance. Lets face it.. getting 3 bad gp's on a machine is bad luck.. getting a 4th bad one in the shipment of 3 replacements isn't bad luck.. and it goes beyond inefective QC work.. it goes back to bad manufacturing process or tooling, or lack of workforce training. From a statistical point of view.. that's a terrible failure rate, especially when figuring parts dispersion...there is always the possibility of 'bad lot' however given the time difference between the practor assembly and the replacement shipments.. one would think that lot would be used.. unless we are talking a very close time frame.. etc.

To paraphrase.. I'm not criticizing the tractor in general.. just elements of its manufacture.. be that materials or tooling, or labor.

There is a point, when you are figuring 'total cost of ownership' that something ends being a deal when nuisance problems outweigh economy... For instance.. I don't think I'd rely on my old 8n for comercial work... too often you have to dink with it for a few minutes before working. However for hobby use.. that is half the fun.

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I find defective parts on equipment every day and this is stuff made right here in the good old USA.
)</font>

I agree.. the overseas people don't have the patent on manufacturing defects.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( What really annoys me is the "lack of workmanship" )</font>

The problem in question could very well have been a labor issue, as opposed to tooling or materials. And again.. theat's everywhere.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( When was the last time you spoke to a "real" parts guy? )</font>

Ditto.. Unless I know that they are a good parts person.. I usually refer to them as counterperson.. as they only look in a book and read from the 'script'.. much like a telemarketer, they usually have no knowledge of the parts they handle. This is deffinately true of places like radio shack. I can remember 20 year ago going into a radio shack store.. and the people they hired wre more tech oriented than sales oriented. Nowadays, you walk in and they ask you if you want a cell phone. You say no and ask where the potentiometers are and they give you a blank look.. then you restate it as where are the rheostats? again blank look.. finally you drop to variable resistor.. and that resistor part usually gets them going enough to shove you in front of the tray of all their resostors, and them hoping you know what you are looking for... funny enough.. this reminds me of a 'jiffy store' story. Kinda along the same lines as radio shack. I walked in and asked for a pesticide.. got a blank look.. rephrased as insecticide... ( not being smart.. just in a hurry.. ).. 2nd blank look and I finally blurted out 'bug spray' which got a smaile and a point to the correct isle.

I do live in the south.. and I had already though of that answer.. and in a way.. it is an answer.. though just not for the south. Seems like the general education level of our country is on the decline. Things I take for granted as every day common public knowledge that I learned in high school are becoming increasingly less apt to be seen. A cynical friend likes to point out that the IQ of the planet is at a constant.. yet the population is growing ( people in general are getting dumber.. i.e. knowledge is getting diluted ). Makes ya chuckle to think about it. The smarter we get as a race.. the more we leave behind. Take computers for instance. I grew up 'banging' on bare metal. I missed the real dinosaur stuff like card wallopers.. but go in early enough to still learn and use them.. alsong with many of the early processors and systems in the mid 70's. A good computer tech back then was just as much into the hardware as the software. Problems with one could usually be traced to the other by simple observation and diagnostic procedure.

Nowadays.. the CLI is out and GUI is in.. people don't know how to format a disk unles it involves right clicking... I went in to an office supply store and had a question on a computer part.. they sent over their computer person... he knew virtually no hardware.. especially if it was out 3 months ago.. and he knew alot about a few of the common application softwares in use. past that he was a wet noodle... I did better by putting my glasses on and reading a few boxes and tring to glean usefull info out of the mix of buzzwords and marketing catchphrases that adorn 95% of the outter covering of most boxes I picked up. Same when calling for tech suport. As soon as I figure out that they are reading from a script.. I know the boat is sinking even faster. The rare exception when you get a real tech or product engineer on the line you feel very garetefull. The network administrator at the school my wife works at might as well wear bg shoes a red ball nose that lights up and a multi colored with with matching face paint. I'm guessing he's running their windoes server by cookbook. He constantly fixes the computers which usually then requires manual intervention by a teachers husband or son to come in and undo the damage the sysadmin has wreaked. He will answer questions about disk usage and allocation with frighteningly vauge answers. For instance.. my wife was unable to save some emails and he informed her that she had used up her alotted space. Knowing that she only had a few saved files, she asked where the space was being used. he remarked that he dint't know.. but 'something' was using alot of space.... I emailed him and asked him where all the space she was allocated was being used.. he couldn't even pull up a directory to view file sizes without my assistance. Turns out it was some sort of a file system allocation error.. ( probably due to his lack of maintenance of the system! ) How he landed that cushy job I'll never know...probably nepitism.

Oh well.. this one drifted quite a bit. Guess I better give the soap box a rest...

what were we talking about? tractors? Lets get back to that.. much more fun.. no matter what color they are.. or where they come from! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Soundguy

 

[GRUMPA]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

Working in manufacturing in the states, here's how the parts thing works here. I work for a big manufacturing place but we make surgical and airplane parts mostly. When the parts are on the machine its up to the operator to check parts. Generaly a percentage of parts not all (takes to much time). When it goes to the inspection dept depending in the tolerance they will check only lets say 10 out of every thousand done depending on the tolerance. If a part has lets say .010 tolerance it will be 1 out of every 100 parts made. In this country they use standards like I.S.O (International Organization of Standards) and S.P.C. (Statistical Process Control). They use neither in other countries but are adapting them but at a snails pace.

Most small parts for any larger unit are sub-contracted out and not done at the main plant. When a plant orders lets say XXXXX units of whatever they expect the parts to be made according to the blueprint and wont check them until they get alot of rejections. Being in another country alltogether the main company will never know there product is bad because it never reaches there ears. Putting it this way you buy a car and you get a bad spark plug, the dealer just changes it out and your on your way, you actually think the manufacturer of the car will be notified, I think not. Especially if it dosent effect the whole line.

The parts we make if we assemble them are tested 100%, But foreign manufacturers dont do that, thats one reason they can sell things cheaper, it cuts down on costs.

 

[ToolManRick]

Re: No \"glow\" Glow Plugs

Just thought I'd bring this thread to a proper close. Got the remaining glow plug yesterday (it was a good one) and installed it. Now I'm all set for winter if it gets cold enough to need the plugs. Thanks guys for all the input.