PT Killer?

[sinthome]

I agree, they are more expensive, but it depends on the model. The 200 series is relatively inexpensive. Apparently, you can get one brand new out the door for $15k. Not bad! 20% more than a new PT425, which is still a lot of money on a tight budget, but not nearly 3x as much. The specs on these are very close and some folks might find that the PT425 beats the 225. It is still important, though, to look at each feature point by point to see what matters to you. I think the Avant might be worth it for the superior ergonomics, drive-train, hydraulics, controls and overall finish, less maintenance. I greatly prefer the joystick controls and dual hydraulics, although I haven't ever actually used a PT.

Ultimately, though, I consider both these models undersized for my needs. I am considering them in a homesteader/small farmer capacity. More demanding than just grounds clearing and homeowner level maintenance, but not full-time commercial use. Here is my apples to apples breakdown comparison, which might be applicable for any of these situations. Let me know if you disagree and why.

For my comparisons, I will assume gently used Avant machines. Some I've seen are just discounted 2016 overstock. Brand new costs might be pretty high, but if it is reliable equipment, I feel used should be just fine.

In my research, it seems the Avant 420 is actually not a lot different than a 225 and just a lot more expensive. The only major difference between the two is the 420 adds a telescopic boom for higher lift capacity. This isn't such a huge additional value unless you really miss loading into a pickup, etc. For me it is nowhere near worth $10k for only that one feature.. better to increase your budget by another $10k+ and look at the bigger models with a lot more benefits. Speaking of which, the 5xx/6xx series are listed at anywhere from $30-45k used. It is unclear to me what is determining these price differences, but if the lower priced units are still in good shape it is really tempting. My budget is closer to $20k, but I might just try and save up, hope for a deal.

As I see it, the best value in a new PT is the 1430. Seems a popular choice, these days. Based on specs, a used 1430 vs a used 225 would go to the 1430 for most folks. The overall best value for a $20k budget might be looking for a used TSM machine, which is what I have been doing. Tip that budget into the $30-40k range, though, and everything starts to swing in Avant's favor. Particularly if you want a stable slope machine that can also easily lift 1ton+ to a usable height. If you have to buy two machines to accomplish this-- the biggest PT mowers are still only rated to 1,200lb lifting capacity with relatively poor lift heights-- the cost factor for a slope mower AND a capable loader needs to be considered.

Beyond these feature and spec comparisons is also the question of overall design performance and quality. I expect owning a PT to require a lot of regular maintenance routines that the Avant would likely forego, but maybe this isn't true. Reading the forums, folks seem to complain of recurring hydraulic leaks and overheating issues with the PT, which makes me really hesitate. This is just my general impression from reading reviews, but I worry about fundamental design flaws. Maybe my fears are overblown?

I live within a day's drive of Tazewell, so I guess that is reassuring. The Bobcat dealer in KY and OH have new Avant machines. There is also a dealer up in eastern PA with a couple kinda expensive used machines. I really need to take a few days road trip and visit PT and Avant to get some seat time and see if it changes my mind.

 

[SpringHollow]

Remember that forums are a chance to ***** when something goes wrong or there is something we don't like. My biggest gripe is that I have a 60HP tractor that only lifts 1200 lbs and the limited tilt range of the bucket (~90°). Well, that is the tradeoff you make for duals with 45° slope capability. The real question to ask is how many people would buy something different if their PT got hit by an asteroid. From my experience and what I have read here, hardly anyone would by another brand if they were paying for the purchase. Most of us drool over what we could get if we wanted to spend $60 - 80K on something but no one can justify that kind of money for what we do.

Lots of regular maintenance? I guess that depends on the definition. You do have to change the filter every 50 hours and lube the fittings. Carl and I bought heavily used 1850's 10 years ago (Carl, amazes me how time flies). In that time, excluding routine maintenance as well as modifications and upgrades I have chosen to do, I have replaced the alternator and rebuilt all of the hydraulic cylinders, rebuilt (tear apart and clean) the PTO solenoid cartridge twice, replaced the hydraulic cooling fan and the hydraulic temperature sensor (Okay, i have not actually replaced the temperature sensor since i just simply bypassed it but I bought one which has to count for something), and I have something wrong with the tilt mechanism - might just need electrical contacts cleaned or possibly a new solenoid coil. Nothing else is coming to mind and no trips to a shop. I am sure I will need to have pumps and wheel motors rebuilt at some point or else I am not using it enough.

Where these tractors are not great is traditional farming and other ground contact tasks. The big plus of the Avant's is a larger lifting capacity for the given engine size. I do not see any slope spec. From looking at them, I suspect they are harder to work on - the engine area etc seems pretty small. But they look like very nice machines to me. I just can not imagine buying a new tractor especially if looking at something larger that a 1430 for what I do. One plus (some might see it as a negative) is that no one knows what Power Trac tractors are and so the resale value tends to be lower than it otherwise would be.

Ken

Ken

 

[sinthome]

Those are some good points and I appreciate the perspective. Have you had actual issues with overheating or just the sensor? Do you think the wheel motors are well-designed and robust or are they prone to leaks and kinda weak? In addition to the lower resale, the other plus to buying used is someone else hopefully has worked out the "new from the factory" kinks for you. I wish I knew someone familiar with the PTs that could look with me. I remember the first Gator I bought used was running at probably 60% power loss, but I had no idea since I had nothing to compare it to. I'm sure a few years with a PT and you can spot a keeper or a clunker from a mile away.

Regarding the maintenance routines, I guess I am wondering if I end up pulling the trigger on a ten year old machine.. will I be immediately wanting to swap the wheel motors and make all these mods because of luckluster performance with the stock equipment... or maybe you were just thinking "Hey, I know a REAL FUN way to spend my weekend!" and really all you PT enthusiasts just thoroughly enjoy modding and tinkering to your heart's content. For what it's worth, I am not that guy.. I try and do my own maintenance because I am a cheap bastard who doesn't trust 99.99% of the population, even less so mechanics.. but I definitely don't greet the potential for busting knuckles with more than a grimace, much less a smile.

But, yeah, I hear ya.. Being easy to work on is a big one, for sure..

Brings back memories of trying to locate and replace the starter on a friend's old Ford Ranger, which was almost inaccessible short of pulling the engine. Totally crazy. Someone was telling me afterwards that it was a US-only version of the truck that is much harder to work on, due to American laziness and reliance on dealerships for simple maintenance, whereas the Rangers destined for 3rd world countries were completely different under the hood, simply because no one would put up with it there.

Anyway, yeah.. I totally appreciate what you're saying, but I still have my concerns.

 

[SpringHollow]

It is just the temperature sensor that turns on the cooling fan. It is even most likely just corroded contacts since I have had to keep my PT outside for the last 6 or 7 months. My wheel motors are 10 years old - I have not had to do anything to them yet. New from factory kinks are pretty minimal. I found out the plastic fuel tanks for the smaller machines come with the fitting already siliconed in so the extra gobs of caulk causing fuel flow issues are from the tank factory. They run the tractors for a little bit at the factory but typically you would have to run them for a couple of hours or more to catch that. I recommended that they scope the tanks first. Sometimes a fitting on a hose is a little loose also.

90% or more of the time I have spent on working on the PT has been making modifications - done for function and for fun.

The only things that I suspect I would not do myself would likely be rebuilding a the diesel engine, the hydraulic pumps, and the wheel motors. Everything else is pretty simple.

Ken

 

[ponytug]

X2.
I'm with Ken. I have owned, or been employed to use, a bunch of different tractors over the years. For what I need today, there is one, just one, tractor that meets my needs. If my 1445 were hit by an asteroid tonight, I would have a check FedExed to Power-Trac the next morning, without a second thought.

Would I love to have my 2400lb lift on a 55 degree capable tractor? Sure! How often would I use? Never. There is about an acre of my property that I could get to if I had an 1855, but for everything else, the 1445 is fantastic. I have put in over a thousand feet of French drains, rebuilt an arena, moved umpteen truckloads of gravel, 2000' of painted three rail fence and posts, including moving full bundles of 8' 8x8" pressure treated posts, done emergency excavations on a broken water main (in clay soil so sticky that it wouldn't come off a shovel), leveled terraces for gardens and cattle facilities, built a cattle sweep, moved a 1200lb cattle squeeze on a slope, plus all the routine ranch chores, maintenance, timbering, and slope mowing. For almost all of it, just me and my 1445. It is by far the most useful tractor that I have ever owned/used.

Now your mileage will certainly vary. You have to make the call on what works best for you, and your property. At the end of the day, it has to work for you.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter

 

[Marks481]

I do not see any slope spec.

As high up as the seat is off the ground, I suspect they won't be quite the mountain goat that the PTs are.

I will also bet that the attachment prices are at least 2x the PT cost.

 

[woodlandfarms]

My 1850 has had a lot of repairs done to it, it lead a brutal life before me and I am not gentle with it now. One thing to know is I have cleared 40 forested hilly acres with this machine without any help. I have had to walk out a number of times, but was easy to fix and easy to get moving on with. I love the machine

The lottery winning machine would be this probably

Antonio Carraro | Mach 4 | Tractor People

 

[KentT]

I agree, they are more expensive, but it depends on the model. The 200 series is relatively inexpensive. Apparently, you can get one brand new out the door for $15k. Not bad! 20% more than a new PT425, which is still a lot of money on a tight budget, but not nearly 3x as much. The specs on these are very close and some folks might find that the PT425 beats the 225. It is still important, though, to look at each feature point by point to see what matters to you. I think the Avant might be worth it for the superior ergonomics, drive-train, hydraulics, controls and overall finish, less maintenance. I greatly prefer the joystick controls and dual hydraulics, although I haven't ever actually used a PT.

For $15,300 you can get a brand new PT-1430 ($17k list, less the 10% off sale still in effect), so that changes the whole cost equation and comparison. Similarly, a new PT-425 on sale is $9900 ($11k list, less 10%) -- so the PT-425 costs well over 30% less than the new Avant 200 series...

I kicked the tires on the entire Avant lineup at the OPE Expo in Louisville KY a couple years ago. They're impressive looking machines, with much higher build quality, fit and finish -- but they come at a real cost difference -- about 50% more for equivalent HP and capability (lift, PTO, etc.). That's just for the base machine. Their attachments are very similar, and similarly priced -- in some cases twice as much as the equivalent PT attachment.

Their base design has some distinct disadvantages for my use on steep hillsides -- they are very short wheelbase in comparison, with a higher center of gravity. Plus, they, like skidsteers use a lot of additional thick cast iron ballast on them, to offset the stress loads of the loader up front. Power Tracs, in comparison have NO additional ballast designed in -- the weight of the machine comes from the thickness of the steel used in the body tub and other structural components, the powertrain itself, and their longer wheelbase (and overall length) moves much of that weight farther back from the fulcrum of the front wheels. Consequently, they have a much lighter "footprint" when working on lawns, soft soils, etc.

I do like the extendable boom on some Avant models, but overall, the PT offers far more bang for the buck for homeowner use. Commercial use is a different animal, and not my concern...

 

[American Bulldog]

For $15,300 you can get a brand new PT-1430 ($17k list, less the 10% off sale still in effect), so that changes the whole cost equation and comparison. Similarly, a new PT-425 on sale is $9900 ($11k list, less 10%) -- so the PT-425 costs well over 30% less than the new Avant 200 series...

I kicked the tires on the entire Avant lineup at the OPE Expo in Louisville KY a couple years ago. They're impressive looking machines, with much higher build quality, fit and finish -- but they come at a real cost difference -- about 50% more for equivalent HP and capability (lift, PTO, etc.). That's just for the base machine. Their attachments are very similar, and similarly priced -- in some cases twice as much as the equivalent PT attachment.

Their base design has some distinct disadvantages for my use on steep hillsides -- they are very short wheelbase in comparison, with a higher center of gravity. Plus, they, like skidsteers use a lot of additional thick cast iron ballast on them, to offset the stress loads of the loader up front. Power Tracs, in comparison have NO additional ballast designed in -- the weight of the machine comes from the thickness of the steel used in the body tub and other structural components, the powertrain itself, and their longer wheelbase (and overall length) moves much of that weight farther back from the fulcrum of the front wheels. Consequently, they have a much lighter "footprint" when working on lawns, soft soils, etc.

I do like the extendable boom on some Avant models, but overall, the PT offers far more bang for the buck for homeowner use. Commercial use is a different animal, and not my concern...

On the bigger units, the Avant lifts more weight with less tractor weight than the PT. I have a PT 1460, which is about 5600 pounds, 64 HP, lifts 2400 pounds and has 96" of lift. the Avant 760 weighs 4640 pounds, 57 HP, lifts 3810 pounds, and has 122" of lift. The machine weighs 1000 pounds less, and lifts 1400 pounds more. With my PT, the weight, combined with the open differential, will will cause problems in muddy areas and on slopes. The Avant 760 will definitely leave less footprint than the PT. Also, tire size is the same. I run the flotation tires, and the same size tires are available on the Avant.

 

[KentT]

I do like the extendable boom on some Avant models, but overall, the PT offers far more bang for the buck for homeowner use. Commercial use is a different animal, and not my concern...

On the bigger units, the Avant lifts more weight with less tractor weight than the PT. I have a PT 1460, which is about 5600 pounds, 64 HP, lifts 2400 pounds and has 96" of lift. the Avant 760 weighs 4640 pounds, 57 HP, lifts 3810 pounds, and has 122" of lift. The machine weighs 1000 pounds less, and lifts 1400 pounds more. With my PT, the weight, combined with the open differential, will will cause problems in muddy areas and on slopes. The Avant 760 will definitely leave less footprint than the PT. Also, tire size is the same. I run the flotation tires, and the same size tires are available on the Avant.

And I wonder how many homeowners run 1460-class machines. IMO, even homeowners that own the smaller slope mowers are the exception, rather than the norm....

If this forum is any indication, PT-422s, 425s and 1430s are the norm for homeowners... I'd guess the 425 is their biggest seller, by quite a margin...