PTO running everything

[NeoFarmer]

Hi!

First off, new to tractors, really new, not even that mechanically inclined YET!

So we bought a used tractor, 1989 UTB 445 DT w/FEL

The guy shows us how to start it and drive it around, after asking why the PTO is always running he says he hasnt figured that one out yet...

So now that I've gotten it home and I'm looking at how its running I've come to wonder about the PTO thing, as the lever he says "puts it in gear" is actually the PTO lever.

The PTO lever has three settings 1) Independant 2) center(off?) and 3) Synchronous

Now the tractor seems to NEED the PTO in the 1)Independant mode to do anything IE Run the loader or drive the tractor.

Is this odd? Seems odd to me... Has this guy jerry rigged his tractor in some fashion? I'm thinking of taking it back if this is the case.

I assumed the PTO was a seperate entity from the drivetrain and or FEL hydralics... But again I'm new to tractors.

Oh... and having the PTO lever in syncronous setting does nothing, cant drive or lift loader either.

Any ideas?

 

[beenthere]

You may have to run the PTO to get the hyd. pump to function, and therefore operate the FEL (Front End Loader).

There may be a PTO clutch on that PTO shaft as well.

But does sound like something not working, and I'd suggest keeping your option open to "take it back".

 

[NeoFarmer]

Hmm ok so the hydralic pump and loader ok but shouldn't I be able to drive the tractor without the PTO engaged? Thats not hydraulic no? hrmmm

Thanks for reply!

 

[Farmerford]

NeoFarmer:

This is far fetched, but so is your situation. I know from personal experience on Ferguson tractors in the early 1950's that the "Synchronuos" pto means the pto shaft is connected through gears to the rear wheels rather than to the engine. That means the pto turns only when the real wheels turn and that the pto turns in synchrony with the real wheels. On the old (and later) Fergusons it was called a "ground speed" pto setting because the pto turned at a speed based on the ground speed of the tractor, which is independent of both the engine speed and the gear on the transmission. We used it when operating a side-delivery rake to windrow peanut vines because it turned the rake very slowly so as not to knock off the peanuts and because it matched the speed at which the rake turned to the ground speed of the tractor.

I mention that because that arrangement allowed the pto shaft to be internally connected to either the rear wheels (actually the rear axles or pinion gears) or to the front of the transmission (that turns at engine speed; I am simplifying quite a bit here).

It may be possible to jury rig the affair so that power from the engine, rather than passing through the transmission to get to the rear wheels, passes through the pto shaft to get to the rear wheels. It has been so long since I looked inside one of those things that I can't visualize exactly how it would be done, but I imagine it is possible.

The only reason I can imagine to do that is if the transmission or perhaps the main clutch is broken. If that happened, the transmission shift lever would probably have no effect. But that would also mean no reverse. If the hydraulic pump is driven from the side of the trasmission it would also explain the lack of hydraulic function.

I believe that tractor was made by FIAT. Are parts or service available? If not you might consider returning it to the seller.

 

[NeoFarmer]

Nope, sorry I was wrong. It was just the hydraulics (front end loader) that require the PTO to be engaged.

 

[NeoFarmer]

Alright so I was referred to a company who used to sell these tractors and he told me the setup was pretty normal for that tractor, that being the FEL is running off the PTO hydraulic pump on the rear of the tractor. Said that was the best option for the UTB tractors. Said it gave good flow.

Said the other option was to hook it off the engine and would be really slow.

So I guess it is normal! Cept for why the synchronous setting doent do anything... Not that I even know what that does if it was working lol.

Thanks for all the replies!

 

[beenthere]

Neofarmer
There are a lot better tractors out there for you to get started on, rather than this one that has plenty of mysteries and awkward combinations for you.

For a new "just getting started", I think you deserve more.

Independent PTO and independent FEL control are but two of the ones you should enjoy.

What features brought you to this UTB?

 

[wrenchturner]

I owned a UTB 445DT which is the same as a Long 445. The reason you must have the PTO engaged to operate the loader is because the hydraulic pump is powered by a second PTO shaft located directly above the common PTO shaft.
There is not a problem, it is just designed that way. As far as the other PTO selection, it is used when spreading fertilizer, manure or anything else that would need to be spread evenly and not depend upon gear selection or engine speed. Thus, spread per wheel revolutuion.

I personally do not think this is a terrible tractor. I did a lot of work to my tractor; split the transmission, rebuilt front drive axle, replaced bearings in bull gear, brakes replace, powersteering rebuilt, injectors rebuilt and many other things. However, this thing had been used to clear powerline right of ways so it had been beat up a little bit. Well, alot.

 

[pycoed]

Alright so I was referred to a company who used to sell these tractors and he told me the setup was pretty normal for that tractor, that being the FEL is running off the PTO hydraulic pump on the rear of the tractor. Said that was the best option for the UTB tractors. Said it gave good flow.

Said the other option was to hook it off the engine and would be really slow.

So I guess it is normal! Cept for why the synchronous setting doent do anything... Not that I even know what that does if it was working lol.

Thanks for all the replies!

I have exactly the same tractor as you - a UTB 445DT complete with quick detach front loader. There is nothing over-complex on this tractor for a newbie to deal with. Either the FEL is powered by a pump working off the PTO or it uses the tractor hydraulics: both are quite normal on tractors of this vintage. The PTO must obviously be engaged to drive a PTO pump ( does yours have a separate hydraulic tank for this too?)

There is a separate hand clutch for the PTO which is a lever just inside your left leg, down is the normal engaged position - do not leave this up when running - it will wear the PTO clutch release bearing). Set engine revs to 1000, lift the clutch lever then move the PTO lever - centre position is neutral (i.e.no PTO), left is ground speed & right is engine speed (i.e. "normal" PTO operation) which is what you need if your FEL has a PTO driven pump. Lower the PTO clutch lever which will start the PTO shaft running, & adjust engine revs as desired.
On mine the loader uses the hydraulic pump fitted to the front of the engine i.e. the standard one. The loader works fine both at lifting & tipping the bucket. There is plenty of hydraulic flow (over 5 imperial gallons per minute) to work a loader. Mine has a factory fitted hydraulic valve on the right of the seat which in my scenario works as a splitter. Hold it down & the FEL levers work, hold it up & the rear hydraulic valves are activated (I use a back hoe via these). Centre position on this valve allows the three point lift to function.
I'd advise getting a user manual - they were also sold over there (I'm in UK) as an Allis Chalmers 5040 so look for a manual for either.

 

[pycoed]

Neofarmer
There are a lot better tractors out there for you to get started on, rather than this one that has plenty of mysteries and awkward combinations for you.

For a new "just getting started", I think you deserve more.

Independent PTO and independent FEL control are but two of the ones you should enjoy.

What features brought you to this UTB?

There are no mysteries & awkward combinations on UTBs, they have independent PTO (ground speed or engine speed) & FEL control & are completely standard in their operation for tractors of that era. They were basically FIAT tractors built under licence. They are a sort of halfway house via a MF 135 & MF 165 with 45 bhp, but with 4WD & power steering.
Pesonally, I think a PTO pump is a needless extra for a FEL when the standard hydraulic pump (driven from the timing case) works so well in the UTB case, but they were far from unusual on tractors of that era.