Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller

   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller
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#21  
<font color=blue>What size hay bale? A big round one? </font color=blue>

It is not a round bale.

<font color=blue>How far away is he? Why can't he fire in some other direction?
</font color=blue>


His target is ~350 feet from my house. Our house doesn't line up directly with the line of fire, but it does pass about 100 feet from the house. The only other place he could be shooting would actually be better, and that would be down his and my property line rather than directly accross my property.

We understand about rural living. We have no quarrel with the dairy farm smells, dusty roads, well water and septics, letting horses have the right of way, slowing down for pedestrians, and slow agricultural traffic. We're not upset about hearing gunshots. I'm not anti-gun, have been a hunter in the past, and understand and support others having the right to bear arms. We just don't like being downfield from rifle fire.

We'll need to find a calm way to balance his rights, under the law, with our protection, under the law.
 
   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller #22  
<font color=blue>The only other place he could be shooting would actually be better, and that would be down his and my property line rather than directly accross my property.</font color=blue>
Sounds like a good solution for you to propose that will meet both yours and his needs. You could even use your tractor to relocate his hay bales! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller #23  
Wow, sounds like mayhem.

Quebec is divided into zones for hunting. I live in Zone 8. This would be bordered on the West by Ontario, South by New York State, East by Interstate 87, and North by Montreal. This represents a "huntable" area of about 2000 square miles. There are 2 full time game wardens to cover this area. There are about 10 more temporary "agents of the fauna" employed during hunting season.

Never heard of any serious problems.
 
   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller #24  
<font color=blue>His target is ~350 feet from my house. Our house doesn't line up directly with the line of fire, but it does pass about 100 feet from the house. </font color=blue>

That sounds unacceptable for a rifle or handgun. Now you have to find the courage to talk to him about it in a manner that won't cause a rift between you. Maybe start out by telliing him you heard the shootiing and wondered what kind of gun it is. Take some interest in it. Mention your family being a little nervous. Ask if he ever considered an earthen berm parallel to the property lines. Maybe offer to help him construct one if he would let you shoot at his place once in a great while. You might end up being great friends or at least great neighbors.

If being nice doesn't get results, then you have to go the legal route. Around here there are laws in the county regarding shooting, proper backstops, distance to residences, etc... However, chances are if you just talk to him you'll get a positive response. Most people are pretty nice about these kinds of things. Good luck.
 
   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller #25  
No offense taken.
Those boys aren't hunters in any way shape or form. They require a different description than "City Hunter".
It's just that people who live in the city or are tourists seem to be catoragized in a class that indicates they are incompetent in the use of any and all things. For example; many years ago our family utilized the Alaska marine highway for a holiday. We did this using bicycles. At one service station I wanted to fill the MRS stove fuel bottle. The lady there gave me instructions and supervision that bordered on the ridiculous. It was only when I snapped open a pair of pliars with one hand to the extended position in order to open the fuel canister that she suddenly became quiet and left me alone to fill my fuel bottle.
Perhaps my point is that tourist are us.

Egon
 
   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller #26  
I don't want to tread on your toes either, but these views of deer hunters are exaggerated. Not that a few don't fit the bill, but not to the point that they should be called or referred to as deer hunters. Call them misfits that wear orange at hunting time. Just because they are wearing orange and leaving the bar at 2:30 am, doesn't at all mean they are deer hunters that will head for the woods in a couple hours. They won't feel like hunting.

Interesting that the CWD problem in Wisconsin was going to be "fixed" by "eradicating" all the deer in about 400 square miles. The DNR thought that all they had to do was turn the deer hunters loose and they would rush out and become deer killers. The DNR found out that deer hunters were not killers. Hmmm? How could they have been so misled? There is a lot more to deer hunting than just killing an animal. There is preparation, scouting, planning, talking, telling stories, clothes, guns, friends, relatives, bragging, and excitement. Most of this happens when becoming a deer hunter.

In 39 years of hunting, I have never known personally a deer hunter who hunted drunk. Most won't go into a tavern or have booze in camp.
Now, there is a high percentage of "deer hunters' who hunt only on opening morning, and are all done by noon so they can watch football, or get together at the tavern, tell stories, and then never venture out into the woods again that season. I don't like to include them as fitting the 'deer hunter' description either.

It was said well, all idiots don't carry guns, and all gun carriers are not idiots. i.e. all deer hunters are not boozers. All wearers of orange are not deer hunters. IMO.
 
   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller #28  
Egon and Beenthere

Agreed. These guys don't hunt anything like I was taught, and do not deserve to be called hunters. Believe it or not, though, most of them do hit the woods. Usually hoping to get a deer so that "wifey" won't figure out what they're really up to. Half the time, if they do get one they don't know what to do with the meat. And to be fair, there are country folks that I wouldn't trust hunting within a hundred miles of me, either.

Tomorrow I'll start wearing my own orange, just so I don't get shot in someone's back yard, and I'll stock up on groceries so we can avoid the stores. Friday the party hunters start (better?). Monday only the real hunters will be around and it'll get a lot safer and pleasant.

We don't seem to have this problem with Bowhunters. Only rifle season.

SHF


Starting Friday morning, my brother in law will be patrolling several pieces of property for us and friends, just to steer the lost back onto the public land. Nobody cares if they shoot a deer and track it onto our land. Just don't pull up and expect to build a blind in my orchard.
 
   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller #29  
We are also city slickers new to our 20 acre farm. We had been warned about one of the neighbors and sure enough one day our dog was on her property and she came over and gave us a mild tongue lashing as well as our dog back. We had never met before. Bless my wife's heart she puts proverbs 15:1 into action "a gentle answer turns away wrath." Within a few minutes the neighbor's anger had subsided. Within a few weeks we are invited to her BBQ. My wife baked them bread. This week she brought us venison. In retrospect I think she was testing us to see what kind of neighbors we were going to be. In your situation I suggest you befriend your neighbor, loan him your tractor, plow his snow for him, etc. Then, as a friend see if he wouldn't mind shooting a different direction. I feel like if you get into the confrontation, sheriff, legal mode you have lost even if you win. Good luck.
Frank
 
   / Rural Living Adaptation of a City Dweller #30  
DocHeb,


I am a gunowner, shooter, and an NRA certified firearms instructor. I can usually be counted on to come down on the side of a gunowner or shooter. But not in this situation. Your neighbor is putting you and your family at risk along with whoever is further downrange. I do not see this as a rural vs city issue, this is a safe vs unsafe issue.


The walls and windows of your home will not protect you and your family from a stray high power round at 350 feet.

It is unusual to shoot a high-power rifle at a target less than 100 yards away so virtually any club range which permits high-power rifles will have a 100 yard target position. (600 to 1000 yard matches test the skill of a shooter.)

You can demonstrate this if you have a friend from work who is a shooter (and a member of a safe range). Construct a mock-up of your wall, vinyl siding, 1/2 inch plywood a 2*4 sized gap filled with a matt of fiberglass and a sheet of drywall. Set the wall mock up at 100 yards. Mark a target (aim point) and place a water jug (one gal. milk jug, distilled water jug ...) or watermelon on the back side in line with the aim point. Observe from a position behind the firing line and far enough to the side to see the jug. Have your friend from work shoot at the target with a high power round (30.06 or better any of the 'belted magnums").

The jug will explode and you will not be comfortable hearing the gun shots knowing where they come from and where they are directed. From your profession I am guessing that you will be able to interpret what you see in more depth than I am able to.

Another test is to shoot through a scrap window glass in place of the simulated wall section. The window will offer less of an obstacle than the wall section. If the bullet hits a 2*4 it may slow down and be deflected enough to miss the jug.


A one acre lot is not large enough to contain an outdoor rifle range.

There is no way that having a house 350 feet down range and 100 feet off the center-line of any rifle range is "safe".

There is no way that one (or more) bales of hay is an acceptable backstop for any firearm.


There are many issues you should be aware of. A few highlights are:
A bullet may be deflected to the side by hitting something. The thing deflecting a bullet does not have to be 'hard' Hitting a branch will deflect a bullet. The bullet is spin stabilized by the rifling in the barrel of the gun. This spin helps keep the bullet traveling in a repeatable path. The bullet may be cleanly deflected or start to tumble. The path of a tumbling bullet is harder to predict.

A bullet may hit a rock or piece of metal and ricochet. The angle of the backstop surface to the path of the bullet is critical to allow the bullet to enter the backstop berm and not ricochet.

A bullet may ricochet after hitting the ground at an oblique angle. This frequently happens with the shooter hitting the ground within 25 to 50 yards of the firing line. Think of skipping a stone across a pond. The downrange and side berms must be high enough to catch the bullets which ricochet off the ground between the shooter and the target.

A bullet may be accidentally be fired into the air by the shooter. A shooter may simply pull the trigger before he is lined up on the target, this is a common mistake for an inexperienced shooter with a light 'match' trigger Any shooter will have less control of successive shots fired in a rapid sequence. The muzzle is lifted by the recoil of the earlier shot and the shooter must force the gun back down to the target. Many ranges restrict fast fire when the backstop berm is marginal. (80 shots per hour is not rapid fire.) Overhead baffles at the firing line and several positions downrange catch (deflect in a controlled direction) shots which would otherwise pass over the top of the berm. While few ranges have overhead baffles today the development pressure are seeing in the eastern US will soon force all ranges to install berms or close.


From memory (its been a while since I studied the Range Design Handbook) a range needs a fan shaped safety zone about 1.5 miles downrange for a pistol range and 3.5 miles for a rifle range. The safety zone must be clear 20 degrees on each side or the center line in a range with side baffles and more without side baffles. Clear means without people or structures. 350 feet is practically in the firing line for a high power rifle.


Building a safe range is not a simple process. Berms are needed downrange and to the sides. Backstop berms should be a minimum of 15 feet tall with 25 feet recommended. Baffles are required to reduce the size (angle from the center line) of the downrange safety zone. Baffles to the side and overhead deflect bullets which would otherwise miss the backstop berm.


The NRA publishes a range design handbook http://store.nrahq.org/nra/product.asp?dept%5Fid=115&pf%5Fid=AR+14860 )
For an online summery of the NRA range design criteria see http://www.rangeinfo.org has some papers on range design



There have been a message suggesting that he may have a metal plate in the straw bale. This is not necessarily sufficient. The design of a metal backstop is more difficult than just putting a metal plate in the bullets path. If the bullet huts a plate at a normal angle (90 degrees) a high power hunting round will penetrate a thick steel plate. I have seen a heavy 1/2 inch steel plate penetrated with a large hole from a 7mm Rem. Mag. bullet. This is a cartridge which would is used hunting Elk and large deer) Metal bullet traps are designed to deflect a bullet down into a sand box below the plate or through a spiral trap. In a spiral trap the bullet travels through a path like the inside of a Conch shell hitting the wall an ricocheting multiple times within the trap. The metal trap must be replaced when it becomes 'too dented to use'. Armor plate lasts longer than mild steel but costs far more. Metal traps are usually used for indoor pistol ranges.


Your neighbor expects far too much from you. Even if he could and does install side baffles to partially protect your house, he is basically making a fraction of your property unusable to you. You and your family will not even be able to build on or use the land downrange from his firing line. You can not even take a walk in your woods without confirmation that your neighbor will not come home, grab a rifle and open fire.

We have seen other threads on TBN talking about easements and neighbors. Your neighbor expects far more from you than the neighbors we have read about logging or building roads on neighbor's land.

There have been suggestions that you help your neighbor build berms. You should consult with your lawyer before you do anything that can be seen as endorsing the firing range on your property.


If I was in your situation I would talk to the neighbor and explain that he now has a neighbor and can no longer assume that your property is empty. I would insist that your neighbor bring his range up to the NRA range standards, without relying on your property as the unoccupied safety zone, before using it the next time. (He will not be able to meet the standards but may not realize this.) Depending on his personality it will be far harder for him to object to the NRA standards than to a group perceived as 'anti-gun' and shows that you are making for a reasonable request. The NRA offers reasonably priced consulting on range safety and design. This may be useful if you need someone to interpret the handbook for him.

If you don't close his range you might as well give him the deed to your property. Its not useful to you. I would not sit in any above ground room in your house with your neighbor firing a high-power rifle.
 
 
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