<font color="blue"> I'm having a light bulb moment (epiphany? what the smart guys call it)
What follows is a post by "Rambler" (Paul) which is completely ON TARGET! thanks Paul.
Electronics & plastic will kill the current set of tractors. Metal & bearings can always be rebuilt, but once plastic molds & a new generation of electronic building blocks come out, there will be no replacements at any price for the old, & the thing is dead. </font>
At first you agree with the above remarks, which led me to believe that you felt electronics and plastic parts were going to "kill the current set of tractors". This of course prompted me to respond with what I thought was a summation of your thoughts ( [Well, from my recollection, (which is getting worse in the old age] the topic was that Electronics and Plastics were going to destroy the tractor world.) Please excuse me if this was not the point you were trying to make.
<font color="blue"> I guess part of my gripe is we consume, consume, consume and treat everything as disposable. Durable goods seem to be extinct nowadays. </font>
Here I see a shifting to another point and possibly your real issue and the point you were trying to make in the first place. I agree that we live in a disposable society and it probably is not in our best interest. The human race has not been known for making the best decisions in many circumstances. I think (from a landfill perspective) that the steel parts will rust and return to the earth from which it came much faster than many of the modern plastics.
<font color="blue"> I guess the heart of my complaint is not just using plastic...not just using plastic and raising prices through the roof, but doing those things and (just one example) charging over 200 bucks for a complete side assembly when they realized they coudl make more money that way.
Or, another example, not producing under armor for the 5105 because they could make more money repairing the damage to underhanging electronics and gas tank damage than they could by selling a armor plate. are all you guys OK with that type of business policy? somehow it seems to run against the grain of customer service. </font>
I see a reiteration of the previous thoughts here. I believe that this issue from a manufacturing aspect is to cost versus what someone is willing to pay. Compromise is alway a factor in the manufacturing of some product. I've spent 23 years in the boating industry and I have know many design engineers in the process. I have never found anyone of them designing something so that they could make more money in repairs. What I always found to be the case was the engineer trying to meet the projected retail price the market was willing to pay for the product and still maintain a profit so that the business could continue to be a viable entity.
I think, after much re-evaluation, that your point is that we as a society are caring less about the longevity of a product (aka Quality) than we are about the Jones factor (how well it looks in the drive). I have to say that I believe there is some truth in that thought.
<font color="blue"> A lot of folks can weld as it is pretty much a requirement on the farm (or at least have a neighbor within tractor driving distance that can) but plastics repair is a little more dicey. Are you seriously contending the regular joe has the knowledge, equipment, and confidence inplastic to perform repairs as easily as welding metal? This is just not believable. </font>
If you can weld, you can do fiberglass repair. I can't weld very well, but I can repair fiberglass. With practice, I can do both. I would rate both as equal on the learning curve aspect.
<font color="blue"> Regarding electronics, I have first hand personal examples of electronic failure in a new tractor......you defend electronics in general, but what specific experience are you speaking from? On my new (150 hour 04 model) the dealer had to replace ALL the relays. (relays are sealed and supposed to be good for life!) and my PTO switch basically deteriorated in the first few months. (I have a seperate post on 5105 maintenance notes in the JD forum with a fairly detailed record of my issues, as well as things I am happy about.) </font>
The responses to the electronics issue I don't think I expressed well. My intent was to say that trying to compare computers etc. (high end electronics) to the electronics in a tractor are not the same. It's like comparing apples to oranges. As far as relays go, they have been around a long time. I had a 1955 Chevy in which the switch for the headlights was actually a relay that would open when it got too hot and my headlights would go out. They of course would come back on once it cooled down. This was not a completely sealed relay nor as small as the new electronic versions but it was a relay just the same.
<font color="blue"> As for your point about us (or me) wanting "older stuff" Sure I like vintage tractors, but I purchased a new one. I want new stuff made to last like old stuff. And for the topic twisters, no, 'm not saying I want to go back to a life without power steering either, just saying I want some modern comforts like that as well as quality manufacturing. You guys act like in order to get a more comfortable suspension seat you are willing to trade off to spending full price for a throwaway product. I just don't get that. Even after the manufacturing apologists explain why my 40 dollar grill screen now costs over 200 because they won't sell you one without the entire front light assembly, I still ain't buying it. </font>
Again, I feel I did not express myself properly. I was not making any statement as to whether or not you or anyone else like vintage equipment. My point was that it really doesn't matter what parts are used in the manufacturing process of a product. If the demand for repair is high enough the parts will be made available by someone looking to make a profitable business. If the buying public wants vintage tractor parts in large enough quantities, someone will oblige them. By the same token, if the buying public wants the new fangled electronic machines rebuilt in large enough quantities to make it profitable, someone will do that also. It's all supply and demand. Didn't mean to mislead you in what I meant to say. I think both the old and the new have their place and I don't put one higher on the pedistal than another.
Sorry for the long winded explanation!!!
