turbo 3 vs. natural 4 cylinder price/performance?

[slowrev]

Riddler,
Often times the same basic engine is used in more than one HP rated tractor. A friend of mine put a turbo kit on his old Ford 5000 years ago and he instantly had a 6000. Same block, etc, just a turbo crank up the injector pump a bit and it has more hp. Not sure if the engine will last quite as long on turbo engines either. Gas ones don't last as long as the naturally aspirated ones. Also known of a few gas turbos that went out and put shrapnel down in the cylinders, not a good thing....

Ben

 

[DK45C_Dave]

Could not be stated any better. Marketing and economies of scale are the two main forces at work in many businesses. Just as you described, build one engine, change fuel rates and turbos, sell it in 9 different 5000 series tractors from 40-60hp. All good tractors marketed to several buyers with different tastes yet only one basic engine to manufacture.

 

[EquipmentJunkie]

Many engines are turbocharged today due to three letters...EPA. Emission regulations created by the Environmental Protection Agency are one of the major considerations for equipment manufacturers today. Noncompliance with these regulations result in major penalties.

The addition of a turbocharger onto an engine gives an egine manufacturer the ability to better control air, fuel, and horsepower. In theory, less fuel into the tank equals less "stuff" coming out the exhaust stack. Turbocharging a smaller engine allows the manufacturer to keep horsepower at the level desired while using less fuel. A stronger, broader torque curve is also achieved.

Increases in diesel performance in the last 10-15 years have been outstanding. When was the last time that you were caught behind a truck on the highway, struggling to keep up its speed on a hill? More often than not the trucks are passing you. Today, you can get a 325-horsepower diesel engine in a pickup truck...twice the horsepower and 50% more torque than in the pickup that I bought in 1994. That's progress.

I argue that it is emissions and economies of scale which drove Deere to use one engine across the board in the new 4X20-series. The fact that these Deere engines have torque numbers which knock the socks off the competition is just icing on the cake for the marketing department.

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I know, the turbo is a great thing, torque and all, but as a manufacturing engineer, I like the KISS(Keep it simple/stock stupid) principle personally )</font>


I also like the non turbo vs turbo. Sure the argument is that the turbo 3 cyl.. has less parts.. less friction.. etc.. but the stresses from the turbo really work that engine out.

I used to own a small pontiac with a 4 cyl turbo charged engine. The small engine always sounded like it was gonna blow apart.. lotsa troubles..

I like the hotroddres expression.. 'no replacemnt for CI'

Course anothe rfun one for the hotrodders is 'how fast is your wallet'? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Soundguy

 

[Riddler]

There is one advantage of the turbocharged approach that I forgot to mention. If you operate in a high altitude environment, the turbo is great. If I am buying my CUT for use generally in the mountains, then a turbocharged model has to be a serious consideration.

Beyond the high altitude issue, however, if a smaller, turbocharged engine in my CUT is not going to help me realize measurable fuel savings, or enable the manufacturer to change the dimensions of the hood in an advantageous way (e.g., slope the hood more, etc.), then why should I take on any additional reliability, maintenance or repair costs concerns, even marginal ones? A slightly larger and heavier naturally aspirated engine will give me the same horsepower and torque without these additional concerns, and probably for a lower initial acquisition cost. Maybe I have missed something, but the advantages of the turbo approach seemed confined at this point to the manufacturer, not the buyer.

 

[AndyMA]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( but the advantages of the turbo approach seemed confined at this point to the manufacturer, not the buyer. )</font>

I absolutely don't agree with this statement. I've had numerous non turbo tractors and my last 2 have been turbocharged. A New Holland TN75S and now a TN75D. Compared to a non turbo the power and torque rise when need is fantastic. I think much of what has been written in this forum about turbo vrs non turbo is about older turbos, turbos added to engines that were not meant to be turbo charged. I know in New Holland's case, the turbo version of an engine starts off with a lower compression ratio. At work all of our Deere dozers, excavators and loaders are turbocharged. My 1986 Hitachi 44,000 lb excavator with Isuzi 6 cylinder has 106,000 hours and the engine still purrs like a kitten and the original turbo is fine. Please don't knock turbos until you've tried them on a properly designed engine. The trick with a turbo is to let it idle for a couple of minutes with no load before shutting it off to let it cool down and properly lubricate itself for startup.

Andy

 

[kybota]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Maybe I have missed something, but the advantages of the turbo approach seemed confined at this point to the manufacturer, not the buyer. )</font>

That is exactly the feeling I get after reading all these responses and other info on the matter. I don't know it because the engineering aspects of it are beyond my expertise, but I certainly get that feeling. Gut instinct, and all that.

 

[ZJ_HR]

Well said Andy.
The experience which helped me decide to go to smaller volume and turbo in tractor, are cars here in Europe. Even lower mid class cars here have 1.4-1.5 liter (85-92 cu in) turbocharged diesels built in. Some of these small engines give over 100HP!!!
And people run them 130-150 km/h every day on motorways...don't care about preheating engine before, and cool it a little before stop.
And they last ... hard to believe.
If they can last with 4000-5000rpm speed without care, why will not last 3cyl turbo engines in tractors which run 2200-2500rpm?
I'm sure, that every guy or lady here is more careful about preheating and precooling their tractor, than with their car /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Natural charged 4cyl engines are simplier and cheaper to repair than 3cyl turbo? Not really.
First, bigger crank case need more oil to change, more antifreeze, more fuel, have more mechanical parts etc, and bigger start price. When you need repair, labour charge per hr is equal for both machines...

And one important thing - pay duties are lower on smaller volume engines - even on tractors here /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

This topic reminds me to never ending discussion about gear/HST trannies.
When I like, for example, complicated turbo-diesel and simple, cheap geared tranny, somebody will like simple diesel and complicated, expensive hydrostatic one...
Nobody can win. Both seems good, both will work, one better than another in particular circumstances /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Even lower mid class cars here have 1.4-1.5 liter (85-92 cu in) turbocharged diesels built in. Some of these small engines give over 100HP!!!
)</font>

I'm not sure how that 1.4l 100hp? engine relates to the 90ish hp engine in my NH 7610s which is probably 2-3 times the size... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Natural charged 4cyl engines are simplier and cheaper to repair than 3cyl turbo? Not really.
First, bigger crank case need more oil to change, more antifreeze, more fuel, have more mechanical parts etc, and bigger start price. When you need repair, labour charge per hr is equal for both machines... )</font>

You are leaving out that 1000$ part bolted on to the intake of the 3 cyl engine.. that makes up for quite a bit of oil/coolant, and a few extra inches of crank.

Soundguy

 

[slowrev]

"Natural charged 4cyl engines are simplier and cheaper to repair than 3cyl turbo? Not really. "

I guess you have not seen an engine eat a turbo. If the turbo goes out it can blow shrapnel town the intake destroying ALL of the engine /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I have seen it, not a pretty sight, cover the small childrens eyes and don't try this at home.

Also Tubro engines are more sensitive to poor lubrication conditions, like not changing your oil on time , Wife forgetting to check oil and thinking the little oil lite needs to come on before you add oil, etc. Do this in a regular engine and you might get by with it more than a turbo engine.

I still say for tractors - KISS.

Ben