Water Pressure

[MarkV]

Thanks everyone! I have a much better understanding of the dynamics on a well system now. I have printed out the advice offered, so far, and will check things out as soon as I can. (no internet at the get away house)

As I understand things, I should start by checking:

1. Pressure switch settings (30 - 40 lbs kick on, 50-60 lbs kick off)

2. See that the tank is holding air pressure and adjust as needed (30 - 40 lbs)

I do not have a filter in the system (but will be looking into that) so that is not part of the problem. Looks like my pressure tank is on the small side, so a larger tank would help stabilize my water flow and save my pump some.

That sound about right?

GlueGuy, I only have one pump in the system. That seems to be the way they do it around here. I am glad to know that if I am still unhappy with the pressure, I could add an additional pump to add pressure to the tank.

Sure is great to have a few thousand minds working on your problem. My wife thinks it may take a few thousand more for my problems./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Thanks,
MarkV

 

[ddl]

Boy to get the pressure in the house that I wanted, I would just take a 100 gal keg, attach a pipe with an area of one square inch to the bootm of the keg and raise the keg to the height I need for the pressure. E.G. 70 PSI, bootm of keg 70 feet in the air. Just invite us all when you empty the keg so you can put water in it.

Dan L

 

[Boondox]

Mark -- I'll take a different tack than the others. My arrangement is similar to yours, except we have a hillside spring that feeds into a cistern in the basement, then a shallow well pump sends the water to a relatively small pressure tank. Like you, I was looking at either larger tanks or running multiple tanks in parallel. Unlike you, however, my problem was solved by a house fire that necessitated new plumbing.

Not being an experienced plumber, and being way too cheap to hire one, I replumbed the house myself using Wirsbo PEX tubing, a sort of cross-linked poly with memory. Basically what I did was to sweat together two manifolds (one hot and the other cold water) with 3/4" ball valves isolating each fixture in the house, i.e., each water fixture in the house has its own PEX run from the manifold to the destination.

What I wanted in going this way was to eliminate the water hammers and to have the ability to isolate any fixture in the event repairs were needed. I got that, and also a significant increase in pressure. Think about it; in using PEX I eliminated every single sharp angle in the plumbing...and those ELs are tough on water pressure!

Lastly, a couple of winters ago one of my basement windows was broken when an icicle fell off the roof. The 3/4" PEX tube running in front of that window froze solid and swelled up to more than twice its normal size...yet did not rupture! I fixed the window and put a halogen light on the tubing. In about a day it thawed out and the pipe returned to 3/4".

I'm one very impressed user! Anyway, to make a long story short, there are plenty of factors that can effect water pressure. You might want to check the layout and condition of your copper runs.

Pete

 

[MarkV]

Dan,
Getting that keg emptied is an idea I could go for. Might even need one or two of you to help, if we were going to set up the system in one day./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I can hear it now,"Honey, this is how Dan said to fix the water pressure, honest."/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
MarkV

 

[MarkV]

Boondox,
That sounds like an interesting system and I can sure see the advantages. Is that the same type of material used in radiant floor heating systems, set in concrete?

The plumbing is new at our place, although I do think part of my problem could be the sizing on some of the plumbing runs. I have been building this house on weekends for the past couple of years and plumbing is one of the few things I hired out. I HATE PLUMBING. We used a local plumber recommended by several people
but I have had to correct several small things that were not done right. Our kitchen sink is the longest run in the system and also the point that offers the least water pressure. Have already been thinking about increasing the pipe size to that area to see if that will help.

MarkV

 

[Boondox]

Mark -- In this area there are actually two types of poly tubing used in radiant floor heating systems. PEX does very well, but the other type has been leaking in systems installed over ten years ago.

Somewhere around here I have a pic of my manifolds. Lemme see if I can find it.

Pete

 

[gerard]

Mark, If increasing the pipe size for feeder runs is an option by all means do it. It will have a much bigger impact on volume of flow than pressure. most plumbers use 1/2 inch for one reason - it's cheaper than 3/4 or 1 inch. To do it right the whole house should be plumbed with at least 3/4 pipe with 1/2 feeds coming off at point of use and NO 1/2 branches off a 1/2 line. You rarely see it done that way (except maybe in a plumbers house!) I have a combination of copper and flexible plastic out to the barn. Even at 30 psi it's amazing the volume of water you get from the 1inch plastic vs 1/2 inch copper. The previous post was also right about angles cutting down on flow. While you'll never have the same situation as "city water", which is around 60psi and CONSTANT pressure, you should be able to correct a lot of your problems by looking at the plumbing and sizing your piping correctly. A bigger pressure tank will put less wear and tear on your pump because, as previously stated, it will cycle on/off less frequently. (Re the leaking pipes - radiant floors now use the cross linked polyethylene, I thinks thats the PEX, because the older version did develop leaks. The cross linked stuff is supposed to be good for 100 years but I don't know how they tested that yet!)

 

[Glenn McBride]

MarkV,

Wanted to clarify a few things. We have a well we actually had put in and I have all of the manuals/other information on it. When first installed, the installer set the pressure at 25/45 which we felt was too low. When the pump was about to kick on you noticed the lack of pressure. Adjusted it up about 5-10 pounds and no problem since.

There are really two types of pressure tanks. The newer ones (at least I think they are newer) are normally smaller and have an internal bladder keeping the air from the water. This is what we have. The instructions on it say to check the pressure every month. We do it a couple of times a year and have had to add additional air. It calls for the water to be drained with the pump off. With all water out, the pressure in the tank should be set to 2 pounds less than the start pressure. For example if pressure range is 30-50, set the empty tank pressure to 28.

Older style tanks were almost like a big hot water heater. The air was in the tank and compressed as the pump put water in the tank. These kind do tend to get waterlogged, basically the water absorbs the air. Since water doesn't compress well, the tank doesn't do much. This does not really impact your pressure though, it just means the pump will come on every time you turn on a faucet. Never had to do it, but from what I understand these tanks are recharged by draining all the water and just letting air in.

The bladder type tanks are typically much smaller than the others. A 20 gal bladder is equivalent to something like a 75 gallon standard tank.

As others have mentioned, the internal plumbing also has a significant impact on pressure. We ran 1" mains from the pressure tank dropping to 3/4" when we split to the hot water heater. 3/4 throughout the house only dropping to 1/2 to feed each fixture. This means the washer and dishwasher can be running while you take a shower and you don't notice when someone flushes the toilet.

If your water is anything like ours, another problem might just be the stuff in the water. We have high lime/calcium (not sure which). Makes a great tasting water but does buildup. Frequently have to clean screens at the faucets. My wife regularly takes CLR to the shower head to reduce buildup there. Biggest problem is the electric hot water builds up with chunks in it that eventually start impacting both the water temperature and the flow. Have to drain it periodically and vacuum the stuff out.

Hope all this helps,

Glenn

 

[Harv]

<font color=blue>Older style tanks were almost like a big hot water heater.</font color=blue>

Hey, Glenn, you may have just solved one of the many mysteries surrounding my system. There is a large tank, just as you describe, standing by itself off to one side of the main water works. It's clearly not attached to anything, as if it had once been used and then replaced by the smaller tank. Never made any sense to me until now.

I'll be taking a much closer look (and pictures) of everything next time I get to the property, but can you tell me if these tanks typically have some kind of labels, specs or descriptions stamped on them which would tell me if it's a bladder type or not?

We're drowning in rain out here in California right now, so I'm not sure when I'll be seeing the property (or my 'Bota) again. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

 

[Rch]

Glueguy, there is an engineering term, the Pouisville-Hagen equation that describes the amount of flow through a tube that is pertinant to plumbing including our own blood vessels. The amount of flow is depndent on 4 factors. The first is the pressure difference from the begining to the end of the tube. The second is dependent on the viscosity of the fluid (water is pretty low unless it freezes!; blood can have a very variable viscosity). Three is a factor that considers the shape of the tube ( round, elbows,smooth walls, no cholesterol jagginess increasing friction) . The fourth factor is where the money is- the flow depends on the radius to the 4th power, double the radius gives you 16 times the flow; a 19% increase in radius doubles the flow(a handy thing to do if it's a coronary artery or urethera or a long pipe to your sink!)
I have 3/4"copper pipe to my outside faucets with ballcock valves to preserve the 3/4" diameter right to the end (of course I use 3/4" hose). There is a 3/4" ballcock valve just inside the house to shut off and drain the outside portion of the faucet for winter( make sure there is a slight fall between the outside and inside ballcocks so the water runs out). I have to leave the outside ballcock open or trapped water can freeze in the passage-way through the ball and crack the brass housing. This gives me alot more volume for watering and various other chores but is an extra little chore each spring and fall.
































RCH