Whole home generator help, existing system in home I bought

[Coyote machine]

My friend works as a first responder and we were just discussing this type of situation. He says the power company and he,(fireman) see way too often where the generator backfeeds the grid and the power melts the lines right to the ground, as in the actual earth ground. The firemen are at risk in addition to the linemen because they have to put WATER on the house and live electric being backfeed from a generator when the power is supposed to be OFF causes them real grief.
Put in a transfer switch and do it right, or at the very least an interlock. Don't take chances with other people's lives by being CHEAP. In many places it is against code, and the law to not have a transfer switch. And from an insurance standpoint they LOVE to deny claims for burnt homes due to incorrect wiring/ backfeed situations.

 

[bubbacuse77]

As others have said, you need a transfer switch. It sounds like the other owner got away without it because he understood how to chain everything together in the right order. This is exactly why it is code to have a transfer switch, so people don't attempt to copy someone else's rig job and hurt themselves or others. You can use that 220 outlet as a regular outlet to run a 220 appliance such as a welder but don't attempt to back feed it with a generator. Call an electrician and he will get you squared away with a simple interlock or manual transfer switch and a proper inlet box to connect the generator cord.

 

[sailfast]

What you have now works perfectly fine.

No need to complicate things with an idiot switch(transfer) that will really yield you no benefit with your manual system.

If you want to add a lockout that is up to you.

Broad statements about the alleged legal status of your set up are likely wrong.

 

[aczlan]

What you have now works perfectly fine.
No need to complicate things with an idiot switch(transfer) that will really yield you no benefit with your manual system.
If you want to add a lockout that is up to you.

The idiots are those who dont have some method to ensure that they have a fasafe method to prevent utility and generator power from being on at the same time.
In a contest between the multi-gigawatt generators of the utility and your XX Kilowatt generator (if you connect them when out of phase), the winner will probbaly NOT be your generator. See generator -> grid. out of phase. - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum for some discussion on how its done commercially.
Other things to consider:
Running into an outlet in the garage generally entails a "suicide cord" with a male plug on each end, how will you avoid having the energized loose end of a suicide cord if someone trips on the cord?
What will you do to prevent someone from flipping the main or generator breaker when they aren't supposed to?
Will you be able to setup a system so that you dont accidentally flip the wrong breaker at 3am when the power is out, you have water rising in the basement and you are half asleep?
What will you tell the family of the person who was killed or injured when they tried to remove the power line from the road (which they did because they thought it was out as power was out for everyone in the area) and it is found that the line was backfed from your generator?

I am not saying that you need a transfer switch, but at least get a breaker lockout for your generator and main breakers or make your own interlock. Not that hard to cut out a piece of metal to prevent both breakers from coming on at the same time.

Broad statements about the alleged legal status of your set up are likely wrong.

From the AEP website:

Never plug a generator into
a wall outlet. A positive method of isolating utility power circuits from the generator circuits must be provided. A very common isolation method is to install a transfer switch

Most power companies have similar language regarding the connection of generators to house wiring.
My local utility (RG&E) has similar language as well as the statement "You may be liable for damage or injury to people and property that may result from an improperly installed or operated emergency generator."

Aaron Z

 

[wyeguy]

Wonder if Sailfast is an idjit lawyer who chases ambulances? Not really....
DON'T use a transfer switch and spend your money on liability insurance instead. And try to live with killing the neighbor's kid or something like that. A crew I worked with was trapped in a backyard by a chain link fence that became energized by downed lines. Still don't know why the posts didn't ground it out good enough. Electricity does some strange things As a trained electrician and 20 year professional electrical utility worker, I would never roll the dice on something like this. Good luck.

 

[aczlan]

Wonder if Sailfast is an idjit lawyer who chases ambulances? Not really....
DON'T use a transfer switch and spend your money on liability insurance instead. And try to live with killing the neighbor's kid or something like that.

Additionally, good luck on having your liability insurance cover what will be termed as willful negligence (especially if your insurance company or the victims lawyer runs across this thread). They'll drop you so fast it will make your head spin.

Aaron Z

 

[techman]

Bear in mind that if you accidentally connect the gen to the grid, as stated you will likely blow a fuse or breaker trying to power up the grid. However the initial surge produced before the breaker blows can put thousands of volts on the line upstream of the local transformer. Not good news if a lineman is working on the line at that moment.

paul

 

[daybreak1998]

Not sure when/who did the work. 30 year old home 2000sq ft, one 400sq ft addition plus attached 2 car garage and one detached 1 car garage. There is a main electrical panel on the outside of the house with breakers for the main home panel, addition panel and then the 1 car garage panel and then a couple other high amp draws (water tank, range, etc). The one car garage built in the mid 90's has a 220v outlet on the side of it that you wheel the 7k watts (12k surge) generator to and plug in. The plug runs to the electric panel in the garage and you would have to flip a 50 amp breaker. From there, I have no idea how power is distributed to the home. The neighbor says the prior owner would run the well pump, fridge, freezer and some lights when the power went off from the setup. I do not see a transfer switch/panel and have no idea on how to safely connect it and test it. I know from the limited amount of info I have read that hooking it up in an outage could send power back throught he lines and potentially kill a utility worker messing with the lines somewhere and power restored would fry the generator. Would I have to flip the breakers at the main panel on the house to off in order to "isolate" my home and then work backwards from the garage panel feeding power from it back to the main panel on the house where it is distributed to the house? I can take pics if need be.

Thanks for the help!

Howdy,
So, you just purchased this house?
You need to have the seller make it right. It's called "up to code". Speak to your attorney which did your closing. Speak to the people which did the inspection. Speak to the local goverment entity which covers your house (village, town, city, county) building inspector and find all electrical permits. Things like what you are saying are not safe.

You have some comments here from others which know stuff, and wise crack comments which do not have a clue. Just because you can do something, does not make it safe or correct.

The United States has codes for proper standard practices. ...like black wire hot, white neutral, and bare or green ground...
Read over your real estate contract, have it fixed properly

 

[aczlan]

Howdy,
So, you just purchased this house?
You need to have the seller make it right. It's called "up to code". Speak to your attorney which did your closing. Speak to the people which did the inspection. Speak to the local goverment entity which covers your house (village, town, city, county) building inspector and find all electrical permits. Things like what you are saying are not safe.
You have some comments here from others which know stuff, and wise crack comments which do not have a clue. Just because you can do something, does not make it safe or correct.
The United States has codes for proper standard practices. ...like black wire hot, white neutral, and bare or green ground...
Read over your real estate contract, have it fixed properly

Only if it was advertised as having a backup genset or being ready for one. If not, the old owner can just claim that it is a welder/dryer outlet, not a generator outlet.


Aaron Z

 

[rholmes69]

I purchased the home in Dec 31st (closed on it and got the keys). The previous owners were a married couple that got a divorce. Whatever happened, she got everything, he was gone from the picture. He was the one who knew how this all worked, unfortunately, we never met him or got to pick his brain....

I had a separate thread where I was discussing some energy usage questions, during that issue, we actually had the utility company come out and check the house and hook up a line recorder due to some high voltage issues. I had the utility worker look at the setup and he suggested a transfer switch, but didn't really comment more than that or say it was faulty, dangerous, illegal as installed, etc. I take safety deadly serious and that is why I posed the question on here, I will not take the risk of having a system back feed into the grid and potentially cause harm. And from a financial aspect, that would suck too to lose a generator worth a couple thousand bucks. I would like to test the systems out, but am obviously wanting to approach that step slowly rather than flip breaker, power up and see what happens. I will post pics of the electric panels, but it seems to be the best thing to do would have an electrician who installs back up genny systems to come out and take a look and make his suggestions. A couple hundred bucks for that expertise it will cost me isn't worth the potential risk and liability of not verifying it is GTG.

Pics to come!