Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[AGTtactical]

Yes. I'll try to dig out a photo. Simple though. About 12" of 1/4 hose with SAE fittings and then adapters to get up to 1/2" quick connects on each end necessary to plug into the rear remote pairs when not hooked up to any implement. That way, if you forget and leave the remote lever in the on position or accidentally move the lever to on, the fluid has a place to go and doesn't "dead head". Dead heading a hydraulic circuit is bad for the pump and can cause very expensive damage that will not be covered under warranty.

Edit: photos show on the left most set of rear remotes there is a blind loop. The other rear remote is hooked up to the topping lift. When I use my backhoe I remove the blind loop and as soon as I disconnect the backhoe I reattach it. Of note, I have often forgotten to shut off the remote valve after disconnecting the backhoe. Lots of other things to be thinking about during that operation and as shutting off the valve involves moving from the back of the tractor to the operator station it sometimes gets forgotten. With the blind loop in place it doesn't matter at all.

Are you sure this is accurate? Considering how silly people can be some times, I thought it sounded strange that a manufacturer would sell remotes without the blind loop if they were going to have people destroying pumps without them. So, I asked my trusty Kubota mechanic about it...he says it is not true...at least on Kubotas. The each remote has a bypass which diverts fluid from the so called deadhead. The bypass serves the same function as a blind loop. So, sounds like blind loops are not needed...though I would certainly start using them if someone can provide proof that this is a real problem.

 

[TheFarmerInAdell]

Are you sure this is accurate? Considering how stupid people can be some times, I thought sounded strange that a manufacturer would sell remotes without the blind loop if they were going to have people destroying pumps without them. So, I asked my trusty Kubota mechanic about it...he says it is not true...at least on Kubotas. The system has a bypass which diverts fluid from the so called deadhead. The bypass serves the same function as a blind loop. So, sounds like blind loops are not needed...though I would certainly get some if someone can provide proof that this is a real problem.

What happens is you hit a pressure relief valve. Yes, it bypasses, but under full pressure. This puts a strain on the pump. If it is run constantly at full pressure you will shorten the life of your pump. If it happens occasionally for just a few moments then it will do little to no harm. You will also shorten the life of your hydraulic fluid by hitting the pressure relief valve. It does more harm to the fluid than the pump. It will also reduce your usable HP do to consuming some to run that circuit at full pressure. I feel blind loops are not necessary if you are aware of what a pressure relief valve sounds like and what your tractor sounds like when you hit that relief valve. If you're not aware and are occasionally clumsy then a blind loop wouldn't hurt.

 

[leonz]

So I did my second full mow with my tow behind flail. One from Betstco, 59 inch.
As an anecdote, muffler fell of it in about an hour of mowing. Of course, all nuts got lost in action, so I rummaged through my garage and found some. Was more of laughter, than real problem, hope that's the last one.
I let grass grow for 2 weeks, so for me, it was tall. I normally mowed every weekend before, as even my ZTR will choke on taller grass.
This thing does not care. It went through grass like it was not there. Also, because of wetland, it went through puddles and mud with the same attitude.
On upper, flattier of my property, mow is very nice. Looks like table.
On lower, very bumpy/hillocky tier, not so nice, as mower moves up and down with terrain. So it's a bit patchy, but still more than passable for wetland.
Overall, I am very pleased with it and am selling my ZTR. Also, saved me about 1.5 hr of mowing, as I went 8-10mph, while in ZTR, lower tier, I creep painfully maybe a mile or 2 per hr.
That's good news.
Bad news: it's all hard to maneuver, of course. I have couple very tight corners, so I could not go all the way to the fence or turn around, with SxS and mower length. So some patches left, and boarders, I had to comb with my 'ol faithful Craftsman riding mower, what added another 40 min to the job. Next, mower is thirsty. Gas tank lasts about 2 hrs. Though I could never tell how well it is filled as there is no gauge.
Actually, found that it was shipped with battery, connected it yesterday, it cranks and starts right away.
Another anecdotal part - there's lots of parts on the engine stamped Made in Japan.
So if you have large open field to mow, without crooked turns and tight spots - that thing rules. Or, harsh terrain, puddles, shrubs - same, it does not care, munches thorugh everything.

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Hello ukrkoz,

Is the Honda engine on your flail mower a GX340 or GX390??

I want to welcome you as the newest resident member of the "Flail Mower Nations". The more you use your flail mower the easier it will be to mow and it will take less time to mow. Please do not hesitate to ask questions no matter what they are as you are a new flail mower owner.


If at all possible when you have time would you be so kind as to provide us with pictures of the flail mower from all angles including the flail mower rotor, the drive belt(s)/slip clutch etc., and especially the wheels.

When ever I use my Lawn Genie Pick Up Flail Mower I always mow the areas where its tight to mow I use the lawn tractor first and blow the clippings out to where I can pick them up with the Lawn Genie when I need to mow with it.

 

[DavesTractor]

What happens is you hit a pressure relief valve. Yes, it bypasses, but under full pressure. This puts a strain on the pump. If it is run constantly at full pressure you will shorten the life of your pump. If it happens occasionally for just a few moments then it will do little to no harm. You will also shorten the life of your hydraulic fluid by hitting the pressure relief valve. It does more harm to the fluid than the pump. It will also reduce your usable HP do to consuming some to run that circuit at full pressure. I feel blind loops are not necessary if you are aware of what a pressure relief valve sounds like and what your tractor sounds like when you hit that relief valve. If you're not aware and are occasionally clumsy then a blind loop wouldn't hurt.

Great answer. I can only add in agreement with you that oil going past a relief is meant to be only momentary, like at the end of a curl or dump cycle on your loader. If it bypasses for any length of time a tremendous amount of heat is created. It damages the pump and can melt seals. It get's smoking hot pretty fast. The Kubota guy is technically correct in that it is not a true deadhead, but if he is implying that it is not a problem to flow all the oil over a PRV, then he is wrong. I suspect if he were answering himself he would agree with us.

My thought is that most guys that are savvy enough to use a loop hose are also savvy enough to know when the tractor is bypassing. A loop hose isn't needed, except as an extra layer of precaution.

Tractors, unlike a lot of things, can be broken pretty easy by an ignorant operator. They are for the most part not idiot proof.

Some backhoe attachments are basically looped into the system. When the backhoe is removed, the hoses need to be hooked back together to continue the flow. If not, you soon have a problem.

 

[AGTtactical]

What happens is you hit a pressure relief valve. Yes, it bypasses, but under full pressure. This puts a strain on the pump. If it is run constantly at full pressure you will shorten the life of your pump. If it happens occasionally for just a few moments then it will do little to no harm. You will also shorten the life of your hydraulic fluid by hitting the pressure relief valve. It does more harm to the fluid than the pump. It will also reduce your usable HP do to consuming some to run that circuit at full pressure. I feel blind loops are not necessary if you are aware of what a pressure relief valve sounds like and what your tractor sounds like when you hit that relief valve. If you're not aware and are occasionally clumsy then a blind loop wouldn't hurt.

Thanks guys...This all makes total sense. How long do you make your blind loop hoses? My wife uses the tractor sometimes...and I could see her grabbing the wrong lever for our three remotes. Any recommendations for where to buy good hoses premade for use as a blind loop for a Kubota? I have a hydraulic rake coming from Everything attachments. Maybe I should just order a spare hose for that and use as a blind loop...it would be longer, but then I always have a spare hose available if needed.

 

[leonz]

About hydraulic hoses,

The length of the hose needed for a blind loop depends on the hose manufacturer and the grade and thickness of rubber for the inner carcass and the outer carcass and the diameter of the steel cord used to make a two wire braid hose for medium pressure application.

The specific hose manufacture has a complete and extensive set of diagrams illustrating how their hoses of any diameter and length should be routed to prevent kinking, stretching or sagging which will cause the hydraulic hose to fail prematurely.

The hose will need two male couplers that must match exactly with the female ports on the remote on your tractor that will stay on the hose
ends and purchasing the male hose end covers will prevent any dust from getting attached to the mating surfaces of the hydraulic couplers.

It is always a good idea to wipe the fittings with a clean rag or shop towel to make sure that there is no fine dust in the crevices of the couplers mounted on the tractor.

I wish that these manufacturers would install the male coupler ends on the tractors and the female coupler ends on the implements hoses as there
is much less of a chance of a hose end popping off as you will know exactly when the couplers are properly mated and sealed.
It would be even better if they installed the hydraulic couplers that threaded on as it would prevent being sprayed with high pressure hydraulic oil
if the coupler becomes partially mated and seems to be locked in place.

I have seen this happen before at my old job as well when hydraulic hoses blow apart on the loaders we used and the high pressure oil blew
over every thing and if the operator was lucky he or she did not get an oil bath. We should have been using 4 braid hoses for the hoist and
retract circuits but they were not interested in upgrading the hoses of these machines.

My brother was almost killed by a hydraulic oil spray from a dirty coupler end on his tractors backhoe attachment when he thought it was
locked in the female coupler end.

This is why I always say its better to have the male coupler ends on the tractor as it is easier to see that the hose is properly connected and secure.

By having the female couplers on the implement you have the ability to see the entire female hose end as the female hose coupler ends are mounted close together on a steel plate on the tractor and the steel frame and fenders around the couplers partially obscures the coupling connections and unless you have a small flashlight its very hard to be sure the hose ends are completely connected and locked.

Its always best to drain the circuit of any pressure when the engine is off as the hoses will always have pressure in them when engine is running.

If your kubota dealer has a good hydraulic shop or hydraulic fitting bins they will have the adapters needed to match
the male hose ends for this hose to fit the male ends of the hose.

It is always a good idea to invest in male hose end covers to put on the hose as well to keep the hose ends free of any fine dust and dirt.

If you have hose end covers its always a good idea to wipe any oil off the fittings before you put the caps or plugs on as the oil will attract
fine dust like a magnet.

 

[TheFarmerInAdell]

Thanks guys...This all makes total sense. How long do you make your blind loop hoses? My wife uses the tractor sometimes...and I could see her grabbing the wrong lever for our three remotes. Any recommendations for where to buy good hoses premade for use as a blind loop for a Kubota? I have a hydraulic rake coming from Everything attachments. Maybe I should just order a spare hose for that and use as a blind loop...it would be longer, but then I always have a spare hose available if needed.

Long enough to not kink when making the loop, but short enough to not catch on anything when operating the tractor. If your remote fittings are close together it might help to put 45 degree adapters on the ends to help it loop. That's not necessary, though. Typically a farm store has pre-made hoses in different lengths with NPT ends. Just find the matching quick couplers for your tractor and add them to the ends of the hose. Type of hose and such has no bearing on length of hose. Not sure where that idea came from. A hose 1" long will have the same working pressure as a hose 1 mile long. Just make sure it has a working pressure of at least 3000 PSI and you're good to go. Typically you will find bend radius info from the hose manufacturer to make sure you don't bend it too tight, although it is tough to kink good hydraulic hoses by hand.

 

[aczlan]

Long enough to not kink when making the loop, but short enough to not catch on anything when operating the tractor. If your remote fittings are close together it might help to put 45 degree adapters on the ends to help it loop. That's not necessary, though. Typically a farm store has pre-made hoses in different lengths with NPT ends. Just find the matching quick couplers for your tractor and add them to the ends of the hose. Type of hose and such has no bearing on length of hose. Not sure where that idea came from. A hose 1" long will have the same working pressure as a hose 1 mile long. Just make sure it has a working pressure of at least 3000 PSI and you're good to go. Typically you will find bend radius info from the hose manufacturer to make sure you don't bend it too tight, although it is tough to kink good hydraulic hoses by hand.

This^

Aaron Z

 

[Jack Yuan]

It is VERY solid. Solid and heavy. Thick gauge steel, thick welds. Blades do not get hurt, they do indeed bounce off obstacles. 3 belts. It'll last.
Best priced I could find, otherwise, they start at $3K plus and go up higher. There'splenty of PTO driven ones, tow behinds are mostly in England.

Hi ukrkoz, is its belt tension tightened by one single spring which is nearly half inch diameter? Like this one?
According to the photos on their site, it looks like same belt tension system like this. This type belt tension system was proved not solid for years work. I think even Betstco didn't realize it, they started ATV flail mower sale not so long time. My suggestion is that you can buy some of that spring, clutch, belts in your stock.

I just want to know if that factory improved on this point. Thank you.

 

[ukrkoz]

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Hello ukrkoz,

Is the Honda engine on your flail mower a GX340 or GX390??

I want to welcome you as the newest resident member of the "Flail Mower Nations". The more you use your flail mower the easier it will be to mow and it will take less time to mow. Please do not hesitate to ask questions no matter what they are as you are a new flail mower owner.


If at all possible when you have time would you be so kind as to provide us with pictures of the flail mower from all angles including the flail mower rotor, the drive belt(s)/slip clutch etc., and especially the wheels.

When ever I use my Lawn Genie Pick Up Flail Mower I always mow the areas where its tight to mow I use the lawn tractor first and blow the clippings out to where I can pick them up with the Lawn Genie when I need to mow with it.

Flail Mower Nation? Where's that?


Here's mower I have:

PK-AT Gas Flail Mower |

scroll down you'll see pics from any angle. Hammers are regular Y shaped ones.
Engine is:
15 hp 420cc JiangDong electric start
But allegedly it is exactly same engine that is made in Honda engine factory in China and sold as Honda, just with another sticker. I can vouch to that as I have noticed "Made in Japan" components on it.

I finally got under the deck Sunday and cleaned it. Boy oh boy, was it dirty after mowing over wetland puddles!
I also took my angle grinder to hammers and sharpened them on the rotor, to best I could. took me maybe 30 min laying on the ground, no big deal.

I ALREADY know how much faster it mows for one simple reason. I took my 60'' Hustler ZTR for a quick spin on the grass, just to compare - and that's exactly when I realized, how SLOWLY it actually mows. Flail goes oh so much faster! And I was so proud of my ZTR.
I now need to figure, to plot, best mowing route, so that I do not get stuck in tight corners and forced to do 3 point turns. THAT is not quite easy with side by side and 81 inch wide mower combination.

I am also still experimenting with cutting height. My property lower tier is VERY uneven, bumpy, I have to be mindful of how I traverse bumps without flail grinding into the dirt.

Oh, and believe it or not. Ever since I started using flail, moles disappeared from the property. Before, I had hundreds of mounds killing mower blades. Now - I have maybe a few, and all on the outskirts. Now sure if they simply don't like the noise and vibration, but they are GONE. Hallelujah!