Am switching oil re: zinc dithiophosphate issue

[sixdogs]

In a short time I have become aware of the zinc dithiophosphate issue and wear on camshaft lobes from solid tappets (lifters) and have decided I need to make sure what oil goes into my tractors and vehicles and switch if necessary. This is an important issue we should all be aware of as many of us have solid lifter applications and may not be aware of it.

With the rediuction of "zinc" (zinc dithiophosphate) in modern oils I do not want to take the risk. For example, I had been using regular 10W30 Mobil One in my GM 350 solid lifter street rod without knowing it probably has insufficient zinc to prevent cam wear. Good grief. As well, I had been using Mobil One Turbo diesel in my farm equip and am not sure of it's additives.
I don't want "oh it's OK" without the technical data to look for myself. .
I have decided to go with Rotella syn diesel if I can find the PPM of "zinc" in it and if not will switch back to dino Deere oil or maybe dino Rotella. For my street rod it's going to be "high mileage" Mobil One until I find a better idea.
As I understand it, GF4 and CJ4 are the problem ratings at issue.

If anyone can clarify any of this or enlighten or steer me to ratings sheets with specs I would appreciate it. We need more data on this before we screw up our tractors and cars with oil insufficient in wear additives for them. Last I knew, engines were expensive.

 

[dogtired]

I am no expert and I don't sleep at the Holiday Inn Express.

But a tractor engine is old technology.

I believe that the old dino ( crude oil based ) oils will do what needs be done.
I use a 15W40 Rotella mineral based oil and feel the engine is well protected.

 

[sixdogs]

I am no expert and I don't sleep at the Holiday Inn Express.

But a tractor engine is old technology.

I believe that the old dino ( crude oil based ) oils will do what needs be done.
I use a 15W40 Rotella mineral based oil and feel the engine is well protected.

Yes, correct ...BUT use a modern GF4 oil recently introduced low "zinc" oil and you are likely NOT protected.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

I wouldn't be quite so concerned about it. While I do agree that anyone with equipment should be educated on their oils, the camshaft discussion is a little flawed, IMHO. How come all engine manufactureers didn't have issues? Hmmm. Chevy was well known for soft cams in the 80's and it carried over for a long time. The old TRW in the aftermarket also had issues. Dozens of manufacturers had no issues, a handful did. That tells me something. Just remember, when a manufacturer points a finger at someone else and says, "That's the reason our equipment is failing" there are 3 of their own fingers pointing right back at themselves.

 

[RWEST]

Check BITOG - tons of info there, especially in the VOA section . You can get an idea of the amount of zinc/phosphorous in samples of new oil. I have a couple in there on CI-4+ RTS 5-40 VOA Rotella "T" Synthetic, 5w-40, CI-4+/SL - Bob Is The Oil Guy and J-D 0W-40 John Deere Supreme "Plus 50" 0W-40 - Bob Is The Oil Guy , as well as some used samples in the UOA section. Lotsa' zinc/phosphorous !!

Here's some good reading: http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf, pages 3 & 4.

One thing about the J-D line of lubes (and probably other mfrs who have oil blended/branded, like Kubota, etc..) is that they aren't concerned with on-road use, so their ZDDP package will probably stay up there.

For gas engines with flat tappet cams, as far as I'm concerned, I'll use J-D's 0W-40 or 15-40 before trusting anything later than an SH rating. But that's just me.

 

[tomd999]

Hiya,

Oh boy, I'm gonna stick my neck out here but here is what I do for all my equipment from Stihl chain saws to my 70 340 W-2 Dart to the Freightliner.

1) If it's unmodified, I use what oil spec and weight/grade the manual says to use. That's it, if the oil spec matches the book, it's good to go. The people that designed and made the engine know a heck of a lot more about it than I do.

2) If it's been modified, like the 340 Dart, I use a racing oil like Royal Purple or Amsoil Dominator series. Both of them are designed for aftermarket performance parts used in racing engines and so far, after 15 years of using either, I have had no further issues.

(I was using Penzoil and/or Wolfs Head oil in the early 90's when I had several aftermarket cams fail. I think it was a more than just a zink additive issue that caused the failures, I was turning big inch stroker FE Fords past 7K RPM and had valve spring pressures around 375lbs seated/750-800 lbs open)

My 2 cents,

Tom

 

[RalphVa]

I use Mobil 1 in all my engines now. The Tacoma and 240D Benz both have solid lifters. The Tacoma at 150k miles has never had its tappets adjusted (and it's a complicated one of putting the right spacers in, etc.), and likely doesn't need it because they aren't noisy (generally loosen). Have adjusted the ones on the Benz generally about every 2 or 3 years. Never find any tight; usually a couple slightly loose.

Just switched the Tacoma to 0w30 Mobil 1 and plan to switch the other engines to it. Initially, the Benz will be half 5w40 and 0w30 because I have some 5w40 left over. Can't go my its manual. 5w and 0w oils weren't available in 1983. It calls for 10w40. The JD manual says 5w30. 0w30 will be even better.

Ralph

 

[sixdogs]

I use Mobil 1 in all my engines now. The Tacoma and 240D Benz both have solid lifters. The Tacoma at 150k miles has never had its tappets adjusted (and it's a complicated one of putting the right spacers in, etc.), and likely doesn't need it because they aren't noisy (generally loosen). Have adjusted the ones on the Benz generally about every 2 or 3 years. Never find any tight; usually a couple slightly loose.

Just switched the Tacoma to 0w30 Mobil 1 and plan to switch the other engines to it. Initially, the Benz will be half 5w40 and 0w30 because I have some 5w40 left over. Can't go my its manual. 5w and 0w oils weren't available in 1983. It calls for 10w40. The JD manual says 5w30. 0w30 will be even better.

Ralph

Raph--This is what I am talkng about. If you use the new modern GF4/CJ4 oil (intended for "reduced particulate" catalytic converter vehicles) in that older Benz or maybe even Tacoma, you may run the risk of camshaft damage from valve train pressure transmitted through the solid--as opposed to modern roller -- lifters.
The problem is the oil additve package has been changed recently and an important wear reducing agent ("zinc") has been reduced enough to already be causing problems in solid lifter vehicles. Not enough is known on all this and it isn't an immediate failure.
Now, "High milage" Mobil One has more of this additive to prevent camshaft wear and some oils are now labeled for older engines but we need to know more on this. I know "zinc additives" are now being sold but my local small town parts guys have no idea what I am talking about.
In fact, I'm not sure I do so hopefully this post will bring in more enlighted folks to comment. There are some prety smart guys on this board.

 

[vsteel]

Here is the story as I know it.

To meet with emissions the oil manufactures had to change the additive packages in the oil. This new oil has less tolerance for metal on metal wear, the best oil you could get was 2 or 3 revs ago (sj or so.)

The oil manufacturers didn't care because the EPA told them to change it and flat tappet cams are a vast minority now. They have been out of automotive production for decades.

Diesel oil still had a bunch of the additives and thats why people said to switch to it. Those additives are not gone with with the latest rev of the oil standard.

At the same time there was some issues with cam and lifter manufacturing. I can't remember the exact number but pretty much all cams (at least automotive) come from about 3 companies and are then sold off to the other cam makers to grind what they need to make. One of the companies had some issues with cam blanks for a while. Lifters were mostly coming from China and one of the American manufacturers was shut down for a while.

The wear problems were only with the break in of new cams that I am aware of. (the articles I read only had the cam break in as an issue, while broke in flat tappet cams were mentioned, they didn't have any conclusive evidence of shorter life.)

The current state is that new quality lifters are again made in America, the cam manufacture has their blanks all sorted out, and things should be ok if you use good quality lifters and use break in oil for the initial run in. After initial cam break in, you should be ok to run any oil. The thing to remember also is most of the problems were seen with muscle cars. The pressure on the lobes is huge compared to what you would find on a tractor.

For anyone really really interested there is a nice article in Chevy High Performance that sums this up nicely (I can't remember the month or year). (You can find parts of the story in other places, its just these guys explained it well.)

 

[RWEST]

Those additives are not gone with with the latest rev of the oil standard.

But the zinc/phos numbers have been reduced in the latest CJ-4 formulation, which is causing much angst throughout the diesel community. Other additives (boron has been mentioned, primarily), or revised ratios of existing additives, are SUPPOSED to provide adequate protection for the valvetrain. This may all be a tempest/teapot, and the CJ-4 iteration may end up being the best thing ever, but I'm staying with the CI-4+ stuff until we see the results of a few years' worth of use/testing.

The thing to remember also is most of the problems were seen with muscle cars.

There have been some with remanufactured standard performance engines too. Maybe we hear more about the performance ones because their owners are likely to hang out at a forum and we see their complaints, while the average guy doesn't.