Am switching oil re: zinc dithiophosphate issue

[RWEST]

And, since it's a rainy weekend here in the Northeast, here's some good rainy-night reading material http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf
He's a Corvair nut, but it's a recent paper with lots of info.

 

[tomd999]

Hiya,

Here's what the Amsoil site says about the Dominator racing oils. I switched to these this year and have had good results. However the drag season is coming to an end and I'll be tearing it down soon, if your interested, IM me and I'll tell you what I find over the winter.

(I'm running a 340 with W2 heads, forged, 11.7-1 CR, Mopar solid Purple shaft cam 557L-296D, shaft mounted roller rockers. I'm staging at 3600RPM on a limiter/trans brake, flashing the converter to about 4200 and shifting at 7300 with the upper limiter set for 7600 just in case. If I'm gonna find a weakness in oil, this engine will find it.)

"AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil features an additive package heavily fortified with zinc and phosphorus for superior long-term wear protection. Designed for maximum durability, it ensures critical engine components are protected for the duration of the race. Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil痴 superior additive technology provides unmatched durability in extreme conditions. In addition, its high levels of zinc and phosphorus additives make it ideal for street rods, muscle cars and other vehicles with flat-tappet cams."

My 2 cents,

Tom

 

[vsteel]

But the zinc/phos numbers have been reduced in the latest CJ-4 formulation, which is causing much angst throughout the diesel community. Other additives (boron has been mentioned, primarily), or revised ratios of existing additives, are SUPPOSED to provide adequate protection for the valve train. This may all be a tempest/teapot, and the CJ-4 iteration may end up being the best thing ever, but I'm staying with the CI-4+ stuff until we see the results of a few years' worth of use/testing.

There have been some with remanufactured standard performance engines too. Maybe we hear more about the performance ones because their owners are likely to hang out at a forum and we see their complaints, while the average guy doesn't.

That was a typo on my part, I meant to say, they ARE gone with the latest rev of the diesel oil standard. The only oils that I know of with the additive package still intact (as we knew it in the older oils) is the high dollar racing oil that is not meant for highway use. I have no idea if its in tractor oil or not. One small piece of the puzzle is that as far as I can read, there isn't a set number for the zinc and other additives. People don't agree on how much of each item you need to have good protection. I have also read like you mentioned that the packages have been adjusted to compensate for the zinc issue. I also have no idea if that is marketing crap or truth.

I think that your second point about the reman engines is true, but I think there is also a greater failure of performance engines because they are more likely to run the really aggressive cam lobes and very high spring pressures.

 

[RWEST]

I think there is also a greater failure of performance engines because they are more likely to run the really aggressive cam lobes and very high spring pressures.

I agree totally vsteel. I remember reading that Joe Gibbs Racing was losing something like 3 out of 10 cams (or some other amazing number) during break-in some years ago, which lead them to develop their own line of oil.

As far as the amounts of Zinc/Phosphorous, I found this chart at the Stromtrooper.com cycle forum (oil is discussed everywhere!!) which shows the maximum allowable percentages of z/p per classification. It only applies to gas engines, and anyone can produce a chart and post it on the 'net, but, for the purposes here, based on what I've read elsewhere, we'll assume it's correct. You can see that anything SJ or later has less than the generally accepted 1200 PPM minimum z/p numbers for valvetrain protection. Some guys say 1000 PPM will work, if it also has some boron and/or other ingredients in the proper ratios in it - I'm no tribologist, so .

Next, does EVERY SH oil have 1300 PPM zinc/1200 PPM phos? Those percentages are the maximum allowable - it doesn't mean they all have that much. The API tests that are done to get the API rating "donut" on the bottle only measure wear, not percentage of ingredients. I prefer getting a VOA done, for peace of mind.

As for diesels, I'm sure there's a similar chart around somewhere showing the numbers for "C" rated oil. If anyone has access to one, please post up. Based on VOA's and UOA's I've had done, CI-4+ RTS 5w-40 and J-D 0W-40 are well above the minimums. Based on VOA's at BITOG on the new CJ-4 RTS, the z/p numbers are way down, BUT, the mfr's claim their lab wear tests show wear protection of CJ-4 being better than CI-4+. Good article on that here: CJ-4 Oil Meets Stringent Demands (ForConstructionPros.com) 3rd page. Of course, those tests were run with ULSD, and most of us are using the higher sulphur off-road diesel, so, does that mean we'll be okay or not? There's a pile of conjecture regarding the oil ingredients' interaction with the amount of sulphur in the fuel, and its consequent effect on the oil's ability to do its job. I dunno, so I'll stick with my stash of CI-4+ RTS 5-40 and J-D 0-40 until more real-world results come in!! As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, we're not necessarily going to see a catastrophic failure immediately after we change oil (unless there's sand in it or something ) - it might not show up for a few hundred, or maybe, thousand, hours.

We need a volunteer to buy 2 identical machines, then put them on a test stand and run 'em for about 5,000 hours, using CI-4+ in one and CJ-4 in the other, changing oil/filter per mfr's requirments, then tear 'em down and tell us what they look like. Hmmmmm, we should probably use ULSD in 2 of 'em, and off-road in 2. Okay, we need 4 now. Anyone???

 

[vsteel]

We need a volunteer to buy 2 identical machines, then put them on a test stand and run 'em for about 5,000 hours, using CI-4+ in one and CJ-4 in the other, changing oil/filter per mfr's requirments, then tear 'em down and tell us what they look like. Hmmmmm, we should probably use ULSD in 2 of 'em, and off-road in 2. Okay, we need 4 now. Anyone???

I thought that offroad was also going/is ULS now.

Locomotive, marine and non-road diesel fuel standards begin at later dates. - Clean Diesel Fuel Alliance

 

[DieselPower]

Depends where you are, in my area off road is also ULSD. Eventually it will all be ULSD, on or off road.

 

[RWEST]

The off-road only stuff at the local filling station is 500 PPM.

 

[DieselPower]

For now it is. Give it some time, it will become ULSD.