Advice Needed to install car radiator to hot water tank

[RonMar]

Well now are you trying to heat the pump house, or are you trying to heat the plumbing and hardware in the pump house? Heating the air in the pump house is not very efficient. Heat flows to cold, and it is colder outside the pump house, so all the heat eventually goes thru whatever insulation is in the walls tothe outside. You are getting the job done, but you are throwing a lot of BTU's away to the atmosphere.

Now your extra hot water tank, along with a check valve and a small circulating pump, could be used to keep the pipeing and pump in the pump house warm directly. There are a few ways to do this directly, but it depends on exactly how your pump house is plummed. If you can describe your plumbing from where it enters the pump house till where it leaves, I might be able to give you some ideas to make a cleaner installation.

One way without tapping into the existing plumbing would be to wrap everything in small PEX tube. Then cover all the plumbing and wrapped PEX in heavy insulation. You circulate hot water from the tank thru the pex and it heats the pump and plumbing directly by conduction, the same way a radiant floor is warmed by the PEX attached to or buried in it. What this would be is a kind of liquid heat tape. If you heat the plumbing directly, The still(or mostly still)air in the pump house would then act as insulation instead of convecting the heat you are putting into the air now to the ceiling and walls for further conduction outside.

 

[CCWKen]

In a thermal-siphon system there doesn't need to be any pressure (or only vary little from heat expansion). These systems are generally open to air pressure. You can recirculate the water in the system. Fill the tank and radiator and light the pilot. As the water heats up it rises and flows to the top of the radiator from the top of the tank. As the heated water rises, the system draws cooled water from the bottom of the radiator into the bottom of the tank. It's cooled by your fan blowing through the radiator. No water pressure is used after the initial filling so a valve should be put on the water service inlet and shut off after filling. An occasional topping-up may be needed due to evaporation. All you need to do is make sure the water level in the tank is the same as the water level in the radiator. (Enough to allow flow through the top radiator inlet).

Ford used this method in his cars (Model T) from ~1910 through 1927. Worked then and still works today.

 

[alltoys]

Well now are you trying to heat the pump house, or are you trying to heat the plumbing and hardware in the pump house? Heating the air in the pump house is not very efficient. Heat flows to cold, and it is colder outside the pump house, so all the heat eventually goes thru whatever insulation is in the walls tothe outside. You are getting the job done, but you are throwing a lot of BTU's away to the atmosphere.

Now your extra hot water tank, along with a check valve and a small circulating pump, could be used to keep the pipeing and pump in the pump house warm directly. There are a few ways to do this directly, but it depends on exactly how your pump house is plummed. If you can describe your plumbing from where it enters the pump house till where it leaves, I might be able to give you some ideas to make a cleaner installation.

One way without tapping into the existing plumbing would be to wrap everything in small PEX tube. Then cover all the plumbing and wrapped PEX in heavy insulation. You circulate hot water from the tank thru the pex and it heats the pump and plumbing directly by conduction, the same way a radiant floor is warmed by the PEX attached to or buried in it. What this would be is a kind of liquid heat tape. If you heat the plumbing directly, The still(or mostly still)air in the pump house would then act as insulation instead of convecting the heat you are putting into the air now to the ceiling and walls for further conduction outside.

My well is about 200 feet from the pump house. 1 1/2 inch plastic line comes in from the ground up into the pump house. From the ground to a large bladder tank pressure set at 40 psi. From the tank to a splitter that has supplied 4 separate lines to various areas of the acreage. Only one is in operation that one goes to the house back into the ground where the main line comes in. The Bladder/pressure tank is about the size of 50 gallon water heater.

I believe you are saying to lay a copper line along side the water line cover it with insulation to keep the heat in. Can this also be done to the pressure tank?

Heat the piping instead of the air.

 

[alltoys]

In a thermal-siphon system there doesn't need to be any pressure (or only vary little from heat expansion). These systems are generally open to air pressure. You can recirculate the water in the system. Fill the tank and radiator and light the pilot. As the water heats up it rises and flows to the top of the radiator from the top of the tank. As the heated water rises, the system draws cooled water from the bottom of the radiator into the bottom of the tank. It's cooled by your fan blowing through the radiator. No water pressure is used after the initial filling so a valve should be put on the water service inlet and shut off after filling. An occasional topping-up may be needed due to evaporation. All you need to do is make sure the water level in the tank is the same as the water level in the radiator. (Enough to allow flow through the top radiator inlet).

Ford used this method in his cars (Model T) from ~1910 through 1927. Worked then and still works today.

With this system would a site glass work on the side of the tank to see where the water level would be in the heater then set the radiator to the height needed. Also would you know of how to install a thermostat switch to the fan?

 

[RonMar]

I believe you are saying to lay a copper line along side the water line cover it with insulation to keep the heat in. Can this also be done to the pressure tank?

I wasn't thinking of copper. I was thinking of the flexible PEX plastic tube. Since it is flexible it could be tightly coiled around all exposed piping just like you would with an electric heat tape. The flexible PEX tube could also be wrapped around the pressure tank and taped in place. The best tape for this would be the aluminum foil tape as this would help increase the contact area between the PEX tube and the pipe or tank surface. The idea is that you get as much surface to surface contact as you can between the PEX and the water pipes and pressure tank. You install the hot water tank and give it a water supply feed from your system in the pump house. You then install a small circ pump on the HW tank outlet and pump the hot water thru the pex tube. The heat is conducted directly to the pressure tank and pipes. At the end of all the wrapped pex, you re-connect the pex to the water feed you are supplying the HW tank with. You will need to add a valve at the highest point in the system to initially purge the air from the system. You may need to occasionally purge any built up air that may accumulate. Once all the PEX is in place and the system pressure tested with no leaks, you add he foil tape to hold everything tightly in place, then you wrap everything in several inches of insulation. You should leave a few places that can be easilly exposed to monitor the temp that is being reached by the pressure tank and pipes. An additional layer of insulation on the HW tank wouldn't hurt either. Something like this...

Heat the piping instead of the air.

Exactly! Cut out the middle man(the hot air)...

 

[johnnylight]

With this system would a site glass work on the side of the tank to see where the water level would be in the heater then set the radiator to the height needed. Also would you know of how to install a thermostat switch to the fan?

I did this to to my jeep for my plowing.

I removed the standard fan and installed 2 electric fans with automatic thermostat controlled-which you can also adjust temp for on and off.

check it out:www.jegs.com/i/Flex-a-lite/400/31147/10002/-1
prices vary by checking on the same site for other wired harnes ready and stupid simple to install.

 

[2manyrocks]

Put electric heat tape on the pipes?

 

[SPYDERLK]

SELF REGULATING CABLE:
Cables are self-regulated so they do not require a temperature controller. The colder it gets, the higher the heat output; as the temperature increases, the heat output automatically decreases. Use for freeze protection on plastic and metal pipes up to 2 1/2" dia. Cables can be safely overlapped. Made of nickel-plated copper bus wire and a tinned-copper braid with waterproof polyolefin cover. Size is 7/16" Wd. x 3/16" Thick. Maximum heat output is 120° F. Exposure temperature range is -40 to +150° F. Watts/ft. rating is 5. UL listed and CSA certified for pipe heating. Voltage is single phase. 120-VAC cables include a standard three-prong plug. They are also UL listed and CSA certified for roof and gutter deicing applications.
Check McMaster Carr Item 3580K33

larry

 

[Kays Supply]

It isn't near as cold here as where you are, but back when I serviced deep well pumps, the best well houses were under ground. They were deep enough so as all that was exposed to the cold was the roof. It was super insulated. The ground temp below the frost line maintaned about 35-40 degrees in the box. I know your frost line is deeper, but you have 200 feet before you hit water.

 

[alltoys]

Put electric heat tape on the pipes?

I would except I have a lot of plastic pipe and a large pressure vessel to cover that much surface would use a lot heat tape, extension cords not to mention power. If it were just one pipe for a short distance then no problem.

It isn't near as cold here as where you are, but back when I serviced deep well pumps, the best well houses were under ground. They were deep enough so as all that was exposed to the cold was the roof. It was super insulated. The ground temp below the frost line maintaned about 35-40 degrees in the box. I know your frost line is deeper, but you have 200 feet before you hit water.

My frost line here is 10 feet. I looked into doing this but the price for now is not feasible as I only need it where it is for another two years.I will move eventually into the house I am building.

I wasn't thinking of copper. I was thinking of the flexible PEX plastic tube. Since it is flexible it could be tightly coiled around all exposed piping just like you would with an electric heat tape. The flexible PEX tube could also be wrapped around the pressure tank and taped in place. The best tape for this would be the aluminum foil tape as this would help increase the contact area between the PEX tube and the pipe or tank surface. The idea is that you get as much surface to surface contact as you can between the PEX and the water pipes and pressure tank. You install the hot water tank and give it a water supply feed from your system in the pump house. You then install a small circ pump on the HW tank outlet and pump the hot water thru the pex tube. The heat is conducted directly to the pressure tank and pipes. At the end of all the wrapped pex, you re-connect the pex to the water feed you are supplying the HW tank with. You will need to add a valve at the highest point in the system to initially purge the air from the system. You may need to occasionally purge any built up air that may accumulate. Once all the PEX is in place and the system pressure tested with no leaks, you add he foil tape to hold everything tightly in place, then you wrap everything in several inches of insulation. You should leave a few places that can be easilly exposed to monitor the temp that is being reached by the pressure tank and pipes. An additional layer of insulation on the HW tank wouldn't hurt either. Something like this...



Exactly! Cut out the middle man(the hot air)...

I was thinking of copper because of the better heat conductivity as opposed to plastic. Although plastic is a lot easier to wrap around stuff.