Advice Needed to install car radiator to hot water tank

[RonMar]

Although plastic is a lot easier to wrap around stuff.

And a LOT less expensive... Yes, I am a cheap SOB

 

[rambler]

So far it seems the electric heater is 200 feet away from the pump house? You do know how much insulated pipe to get the hot water to the pump house costs?

This just seems like an unworkable situation from all angles.

You have electric in the pumphouse, so the most efficient is to put an electric heater in there & be done with it. Sounds like you just need a better heater.

Here in MN it gets to minus 20 or 30, frost line is 5 feet. Many folks keep their pump house warm with a light bulb - get the radient heat right on the metal parts, and use some water now & then, and all is good. You don't need to heat the whole pumphouse, and you don't want to heat up the water in your pressure tank - just keep it from freezing.

My pump house is below grade, uninsulated concrete, only froze once in 40 years. Jusy put snow or hay over the top, and use some water. The water fromn the well comes in at 55 degrees, so works as a radiator of it's own.

My cattle watterer is also a tube 8 feet deep, with a 5 gallon tub of water exposed to the surface. The heat coming up from below grade keeps the water from freezing. No electricity. It cost me 600, but I think I save $15 a month over the winter months in electricity, saved money by spending that $600.

I think you are on the wrong track with electric water heat, fans, long pipes, and so forth. Way too complicated. What happens when the power goes out, everything freezes up, including your new piping & radiator.

Keep it simple. Put limited heat exactly where you need it, as little as possible, as simple as possible.

Insulaton & simplicity will pay you big dividends.

--->Paul

 

[alltoys]

So far it seems the electric heater is 200 feet away from the pump house? You do know how much insulated pipe to get the hot water to the pump house costs?

This just seems like an unworkable situation from all angles.

You have electric in the pumphouse, so the most efficient is to put an electric heater in there & be done with it. Sounds like you just need a better heater.

Here in MN it gets to minus 20 or 30, frost line is 5 feet. Many folks keep their pump house warm with a light bulb - get the radient heat right on the metal parts, and use some water now & then, and all is good. You don't need to heat the whole pumphouse, and you don't want to heat up the water in your pressure tank - just keep it from freezing.

My pump house is below grade, uninsulated concrete, only froze once in 40 years. Jusy put snow or hay over the top, and use some water. The water fromn the well comes in at 55 degrees, so works as a radiator of it's own.

My cattle watterer is also a tube 8 feet deep, with a 5 gallon tub of water exposed to the surface. The heat coming up from below grade keeps the water from freezing. No electricity. It cost me 600, but I think I save $15 a month over the winter months in electricity, saved money by spending that $600.

I think you are on the wrong track with electric water heat, fans, long pipes, and so forth. Way too complicated. What happens when the power goes out, everything freezes up, including your new piping & radiator.

Keep it simple. Put limited heat exactly where you need it, as little as possible, as simple as possible.

Insulaton & simplicity will pay you big dividends.

--->Paul

Paul you don't seem to understand the situation I am in. Here where I live -20 to -30 F is a heat wave in the winter. By October 31 I have at least 2 inches of snow with temps from -10 to -15. By middle of November I am in the -20 range, by December a constant -30. January it will hit -40 with spurts down to -50 that will last for a week at a time. February it can warm up to -20 truly a heat wave. I am afraid you don't know what winter is.

Frost line here is at 10 feet, my water line from the well to the pump house is set at 12 - 15 ft below surface. I do not have any problem with this line if I did I would change something in a big hurry. Water coming out of the well is a constant 40*F winter or summer well is 375ft deep.

The problem I have is heating the pump house and even with 8inch walls a light bulb will not do the job. Yes I have electrics into the pump house hence using electric heaters. A 500W brooder lamp and 1750W heater work okay in the -20 to -30 stuff but an additional heater is needed for the real cold stuff.

When I have to plug in my vehicle when it is in the garage to make sure it will start that is cold.

Do you Understand what I mean when I say I have to plug in the vehicle?

 

[SPYDERLK]

Paul you don't seem to understand the situation I am in. Here where I live -20 to -30 F is a heat wave in the winter. By October 31 I have at least 2 inches of snow with temps from -10 to -15. By middle of November I am in the -20 range, by December a constant -30. January it will hit -40 with spurts down to -50 that will last for a week at a time. February it can warm up to -20 truly a heat wave. I am afraid you don't know what winter is.

Frost line here is at 10 feet, my water line from the well to the pump house is set at 12 - 15 ft below surface. I do not have any problem with this line if I did I would change something in a big hurry. Water coming out of the well is a constant 40*F winter or summer well is 375ft deep.

The problem I have is heating the pump house and even with 8inch walls a light bulb will not do the job. Yes I have electrics into the pump house hence using electric heaters. A 500W brooder lamp and 1750W heater work okay in the -20 to -30 stuff but an additional heater is needed for the real cold stuff.

When I have to plug in my vehicle when it is in the garage to make sure it will start that is cold.

Do you Understand what I mean when I say I have to plug in the vehicle?

I still think the self regulating tape I posted in #18 would work because the heat is applied directly to the pipe or tank. You can use a heat compound to improve tapeto suface contact. Then an insulating overwrap. How much pipe is there-how big is the tank?? With out a picture Im having trouble seeing why a single 100' length of this tape wouldnt be enuf to apply direct heat to all water vessels sufficient to prevent freezing with use of overwrapped insulation. If not then more tape or auxilliary air heat. If you can use the tape it will save its cost quickly. With the air heat it seems to me you must be spending >$5/day on electricity.
larry

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Geez with those Temps I am glad for a balmy 40 degree rainy day here in Seattle is winter. Have you considered moving?
Just an abstract thought. Using geothermal heating. In your case you would have to drill down a little futher. I am not 100% on the whole system that they pipe the ground temp into a heat pump. So even if your ground temp is 40 degrees that is a lot better than minus temps in the pump house. If you used one of those systems to pull the ground heat and radiate it into the pump house.
How the heck do they manage in The artic regions?

 

[Jagmandave]

He's pretty far up north already, Vimy is north of Edmonton, Alberta..........

What I want to know is why live in a place so cold and inhospitable?

What does one do up there to earn a living? Is it farmland? If so, the growing season must be pretty short........

And I think Spyder is on the right track, heattape, then insulation over that should do the trick, and be less expensive than heating the whole pumphouse, but maybe you need to do both in the worst weather.

 

[zuiko]

If that kind of wattage isn't doing the trick I would probably insulate and seal up the building more. That is a lot of heat for (what should be) a very small room. Even if you had to add another 6"+ (or 12" or whatever it takes) of foam and a few tubes of caulk to seal it up more that would beat paying that kind of electric bill.

 

[rambler]

Paul you don't seem to understand the situation I am in. Here where I live -20 to -30 F is a heat wave in the winter. By October 31 I have at least 2 inches of snow with temps from -10 to -15. By middle of November I am in the -20 range, by December a constant -30. January it will hit -40 with spurts down to -50 that will last for a week at a time. February it can warm up to -20 truly a heat wave. I am afraid you don't know what winter is.

Frost line here is at 10 feet, my water line from the well to the pump house is set at 12 - 15 ft below surface. I do not have any problem with this line if I did I would change something in a big hurry. Water coming out of the well is a constant 40*F winter or summer well is 375ft deep.

The problem I have is heating the pump house and even with 8inch walls a light bulb will not do the job. Yes I have electrics into the pump house hence using electric heaters. A 500W brooder lamp and 1750W heater work okay in the -20 to -30 stuff but an additional heater is needed for the real cold stuff.

When I have to plug in my vehicle when it is in the garage to make sure it will start that is cold.

Do you Understand what I mean when I say I have to plug in the vehicle?

I understand. I need to keep livestock funtioning in minus 20 or worse weather. I run diesels all winter. Sure I understand.

I don't see how runnig 200 feet of heated waterline to your pumphouse is going to help any - that is too long a run. Here in our 'mild' climate they don't want you to run over 100 feet, 70 or less is recommended. Unless I misunderstand, you want to run 200 feet? Doesn't work.

What you need is a simple plan. Not a complex plan. That was my point. You need something simple & dependable. What you are planning sounds terribly complex & expensive to build and operate.

Good luck with it. We all live where we are, make it work out for ourselves. Do you chuckle at the folks in southern USA who put in waterpipe with a little chisel plow point, a foot deep?

--->Paul

 

[alltoys]

I understand. I need to keep livestock funtioning in minus 20 or worse weather. I run diesels all winter. Sure I understand.

I don't see how runnig 200 feet of heated waterline to your pumphouse is going to help any - that is too long a run.
--->Paul

No you don't understand at all. The only place I have to heat is the pump house or the components inside it. The 200 feet of line is under the frost line hence it doesn't need to be heated, GET IT. THE 200 FEET OF LINE DOES NOT NEED TO BE HEATED!!!!!!

 

[alltoys]

I still think the self regulating tape I posted in #18 would work because the heat is applied directly to the pipe or tank. You can use a heat compound to improve tapeto suface contact. Then an insulating overwrap. How much pipe is there-how big is the tank?? With out a picture Im having trouble seeing why a single 100' length of this tape wouldnt be enuf to apply direct heat to all water vessels sufficient to prevent freezing with use of overwrapped insulation. If not then more tape or auxilliary air heat. If you can use the tape it will save its cost quickly. With the air heat it seems to me you must be spending >$5/day on electricity.
larry

I have tried heat tape but there is to much pipe and the tank is large. To cover it all with the heat tape power consumption is greater than the air heaters I already have.

Geez with those Temps I am glad for a balmy 40 degree rainy day here in Seattle is winter. Have you considered moving?
Just an abstract thought. Using geothermal heating. In your case you would have to drill down a little futher. I am not 100% on the whole system that they pipe the ground temp into a heat pump. So even if your ground temp is 40 degrees that is a lot better than minus temps in the pump house. If you used one of those systems to pull the ground heat and radiate it into the pump house.
How the heck do they manage in The artic regions?

Geothermal I have looked into and it is extremely expensive plus it needs a back up once it gets cold. For a house it is feasible but not for a little pump shack. Normally in my region the pump house section is included in a larger building like a house or heated shop to keep all that stuff from freezing. Not only that but in the next 2 years I will build a new house with the pump section involved in the structure to keep this problem from happening.

He's pretty far up north already, Vimy is north of Edmonton, Alberta..........

What I want to know is why live in a place so cold and inhospitable?

What does one do up there to earn a living? Is it farmland? If so, the growing season must be pretty short........

And I think Spyder is on the right track, heattape, then insulation over that should do the trick, and be less expensive than heating the whole pumphouse, but maybe you need to do both in the worst weather.

Our growing season is very short basically 4 months before frost hits. Laughing joke here is 8 months of winter and 4 months of construction. Winter routine here is just as busy as anywhere else only no bugs to worry about.

If that kind of wattage isn't doing the trick I would probably insulate and seal up the building more. That is a lot of heat for (what should be) a very small room. Even if you had to add another 6"+ (or 12" or whatever it takes) of foam and a few tubes of caulk to seal it up more that would beat paying that kind of electric bill.

Actually I just installed another wall to double the already insulated area and I am going to put in the water heater with plastic pipe covering the water line and pressure tank. Tank size is about the same dimensions as a 50 gal water heater for your house.

Thank you all for your suggestions it has helped.

Paul on the other hand