3 point no longer operates

   / 3 point no longer operates #1  

mach158

New member
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
15
Location
Marion, IA
Tractor
2007 Kubota RTV 900
I have a 70's john deere 1630E. Found out ihad a hydraulic leak the hard way when the reservoir became empty and i noticed the steering was getting harder. Drove tractor like this for 3-5 minutes, didnt have much choice there.

Now I have added fluided and steering is like new but now my 3 point will not raise. I can lift the arms all the way up with little effort it seems. No idea if thats good or bad or even relevant. I figure any air in the line should have bleed itself out by now. Ran tractor for approx 20-30 minutes and 3 point still doesnt move. All fluids are full. No idea what else to check really. Cant find a leak anywhere. Only time I find evidence of a leak is after it sits for atleast a day or more. I'm an auto gear head, tractors are new to me.

If pictures of the tractor help they can be seen here mach158/JD 1630 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
 
   / 3 point no longer operates #2  
Not sure, but a guess would be that the PS and live hydraulics are powered by 2 different pumps. If so, it could be air locked. There may be a port to purge air out. This is fairly common on older pumps with some wear. They push good still, but suck at sucking.
 
   / 3 point no longer operates #3  
I'm not sure how to bleed your system, but be very careful running the tractor for very long without hydraulic fluid in the pump. If it runs very long when dry, you may burn up the pump.
 
   / 3 point no longer operates
  • Thread Starter
#4  
well i was kind of figuring that if the pump was burned up that the power steering would feel horrible but it works wonderfully.

I'll get more in depth on my next day off and trace all the lines and stuff and see what I can find.
 
   / 3 point no longer operates #5  
well i was kind of figuring that if the pump was burned up that the power steering would feel horrible but it works wonderfully.

You are absolutely right. I was thinking as John Bud that you would have two separate pumps, but that is not the case on the JD1630. You have only one hydraulic pump and the reservoir sits above it and gravity feeds to the pump. The power steering is run from a priority valve that supplies fluid for steering and brakes. If the power steering is working, then the pump must be getting fluid and supplying pressure at least as far as the priority valve. My bet is that you have an airlock somewhere between the pump and the rear hydraulics and rockshaft. There has to be somewhere you can open a line and bleed air, but I obviously am not in the know on that topic. Sorry I can't be anymore help. What I know, I found out by going to John Deere's website and looking at their parts diagrams.
 
   / 3 point no longer operates
  • Thread Starter
#6  
You are absolutely right. I was thinking as John Bud that you would have two separate pumps, but that is not the case on the JD1630. You have only one hydraulic pump and the reservoir sits above it and gravity feeds to the pump. The power steering is run from a priority valve that supplies fluid for steering and brakes. If the power steering is working, then the pump must be getting fluid and supplying pressure at least as far as the priority valve. My bet is that you have an airlock somewhere between the pump and the rear hydraulics and rockshaft. There has to be somewhere you can open a line and bleed air, but I obviously am not in the know on that topic. Sorry I can't be anymore help. What I know, I found out by going to John Deere's website and looking at their parts diagrams.

Its a great start though. I havent been able to check into it yet due to work but this weekend I will be and with even that little of info its a big help.

Appreciate the help guys. Thanks!
 
   / 3 point no longer operates #7  
The priority flow valve Jim describes may explain why your power steering and brakes could be acting normal even if the pump has been damaged.

Suppose the pump, when operating properly, produces 10gpm at 2000rpm, and that the priority flow valve is set to send the first 2gpm to the power steering and brakes. If the pump has been run dry or nearly dry, the first damage is usally between the ends of the gears and the ends of the pump housing since that is where the metal surfaces slide on each other. The lack of lubrication causes the metal surfaces to touch and score, destroying the seal between them and allowing fluid to escape around the ends. When the fluid gets low, it also heats up because there is not enough volume to properly remove heat from the system. This reduces the viscosity and further encourages scoring of the surfaces. Some pumps have replaceable wear plates on the ends, often of soft metal like brass, that suffer most of the damage and can be replaced.

In any case, if the pump has been damaged, the leakeage will greatly reduce the pump output, particularly at working pressures. The pump may still produce, say, 8gpm if there is no load. But if the pump is forced to work against even a small restriction, so that the pressure raises to even 100 or 200psi, the flow will drop dramatically.

That is where the priority flow valve comes in. The typical spool type valve forces fluid to the priority circuit (PS and brakes) by cutting off all flow to the excess circuit (three point hitch) until the desired volume is going through the priority circuit. This is the resting state of the valve; that is, when you first start up the valve spool rests under spring pressure in a position to send all fluid to the PS/brakes. Only when the flow to the priority circuit reachs the design volume does the pressure differential in the valve cause the spool to shift so that some fluid is sent to the excess circuit. Your pump could well be producing just enough volume to satisfy the priority flow setting, but leaving no more flow for the excess circuit. If that is true, the power steering would still work, but the three point hitch would not operate since it would not be receiving any fluid.

I doubt that the problem is air in the pressure line from the pump to the TPH. The pump must be getting fluid from the reservoir since the PS is working. If the pump is sending fluid to the TPH any air in the lines will just compress until its pressure equals the fluid pressure, and the working device (TPH ram) will still be under pressure. The air may make the device move jerkily, but it will move, and after a few cycles most air will be removed from the system. This is different from air in a car's brake lines, since the volume from the master cylinder is limited and will not compress the air very much, while the tractor pump will continue to force fluid into the line until the air pressure equals pump pressure.

The first thing to do is to check the pressure at the pump, ahead of the priority valve, with the wheels turned to lock. This will cause the priority flow control valve to close off the excess port (if it is not already doing so) in an attempt to keep the priority flow moving through the steering circuit. This should do two things: 1. give you the maximum pump pressure, and 2. cause the system relief valve to open, causing the familiar buzzing sound. I suspect you will find that the pressure is below specifications and that the relief valve does not open since the pump is not building up enough pressure to reach the valve setting.

Good luck. And keep us posted.
 
   / 3 point no longer operates
  • Thread Starter
#8  
well i found a hose that leaks only when i put the steering to full turn to the right. Sprays a decent amount outin a fine little stream. Anychance if i get this replaced my problems may be solved?

I can get my 3 point to raise very very very slowly, talking 3-5 minutes to get all the way up letting the tractor idle at half throttle.

I can not hear any noise when the wheels is turned full turn in either direction like you would on a car. Also at this point the brake pedals are VERY stiff andhard to push. I still have brakes but pedals will barely move at all.

So far to me it is looking like I will be needing a new pump unless someone can prove otherwise which would be nice if someone could.

Appreciate all the help.
 
   / 3 point no longer operates #9  
Sorry that your news seems all bad. Most of us, if we are around machinery long enough, have a similar experience.

The leaking PS hose is unlikely to be the source of your problem.

If you do replace the pump, be sure to flush the entire system, including all the lines you can get to, before installing the new pump. Fine metal particles from the pump can get into the sump unless the exhaust from the PS, brakes, and TPH are filtered before dumping into the sump, which is possible, but unlikely. If those particles get into the sump and are then picked up by the new pump, it will be damaged in short order. Even if all paths from pump to tank are filtered, it is still a good idea to fush the system thoroughly.
 
   / 3 point no longer operates #10  
So far to me it is looking like I will be needing a new pump unless someone can prove otherwise which would be nice if someone could.

Appreciate all the help.

Surely you have a JD dealer in your area to look at the tractor. You could have several things wrong other than the pump. The dealer will have the tools and know-how to do pressure and flow testing on the pump or the whole system. I think it will cost a lot less than the price of a pump to have them check your system. Wouldn't it be a kick in the behind if you replace the pump and it does the same thing?:( Transporting the tractor is probably the hardest part. Maybe a visit with their service manager could give you some good advice.

BTW: I looked at your tractor photos and that's a nice looking tractor. It's a shame it's busted right now.

Edit: That hose spraying when the steering goes to it's maximum angle is because the pressure builds very high. If the pump was not putting out high pressure, that leak might not happen. I would take that as another positive sign that the pump might be okay.
 

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