Generator Damage Electronics?

[Travelover]

I appreciate all the comments, I'm learning a lot. I got lazy during the 4 day outage and left everything on. I really should have turned off the well pump and only run it occasionally to recharge the system, between furnace cycles.

I'm also looking at a slightly larger Honda generator that I found on Craigslist. The Coleman generator that I have has minimal voltage regulation and they may have exaggerated its rated output.

Those APC UPS systems aren't all that expensive. How many watts would be necessary for a typical desktop and printer setup?

 

[Eagleview]

What can also happen is that a generator can put a lot of line noise into the modem which will make it drop out . Mine does it all the time when i have the genny charging the batteries .

Hey , what's with this Veteran Member deal ? One minute i'm Platinum , next thing i'm old .

 

[RadarTech]

Another thought here...

Difference of potential of electrical current flow..
If the generator has a different ground than the system, DC conversion on the AC voltage could have a floating ground effect and create problems.

With all that said..
Make sure you connect the ground from the generator to the ground of the house!!!

About 15 years ago I deployed a military radar to a location with poor grounding.Someone did not keep the grounds watered and salted and we fried a few components in the transmitter system.

The grounding from the transmitter system to the control systems had a 10 volt AC difference due to the grounding differences.

When the ground was fixed the voltage difference was zero.. and we never had another problem!!




Jim

 

[RonMar]

To add to what Jim said, if feeding a 240V panel from your generator, make sure the neutral wiring from genertor to panel is good also. Bad things happen to 120V appliances put in series across a 240 circuit that has dropped it's center tap/neutral connection from the power source...

Whistlepig
As for your situation, it would depend on how long it takes you to get home to get the generator on line. Watts are watts regardless of the source. Power in watts is equal to current times voltage. Your 200 watt pellet stove pulls 1.6A of electric current at 120VAC. Most small domestic UPSs(600-700VA) have two 8.5 Amp Hour, 12V gel cells in series for 24V. A 200W load would pull 8A of current from a 24V battery bank. No conversion is without loss, so making 120VAC out of 24VDC is only done at about 90% efficiency so that 200 watts might cost you upwards of 8.5A of load on the batteries. Those 8.5AH batteries also only deliver that ammount of capacity when discharged at the 20 hour rate(about 1/2 amp of load). Faster discharge means more heat generated and less delivered energy. So your 200W of pellet stove load could probably be sustained by a typical domestic UPS for about 50 minutes? The mid grade UPS's(1.5-3KVA?) typically use 4 batteries for 48VDC which cuts a given load on the batteries in half compared to the 24V units. The dollar figure goes up considerably with these units.

Most UPS's are not really meant for long term backup, and are not as efficient as purpose built inverter systems. They are just designed to cover the gap during short commercial outtages, or between commercial loss and automated generator startup. Or they run long enough to allow for a safe shutdown of equipment.

As for make of UPS. I have had good luck with TripLite and APC. Where I work we deal almost exclusively with APC units of various sizes from 4 battery 19" rack mount units, up to about the size of a refrigerator with multiple battery banks.

 

[denmansoft]

Bit of a side question:
What is the 200 watt load on a pellet stove?
Is this continuous or periodic ?

I'm not complaining but my 8500 watt genset hasn't had a good workout yet.

I use APC 700 and 1000VA UPS and a few smaller ones for things like phone system etc.

 

[ray66v]

I have a 5500 watt Generac. As far as electronics used on it go, I have run my high efficiency furnace, plus every kind of electronic device imaginable, and have never had any problems.

 

[dmccarty]

We now have three APC UPSes in the house. Each desktop has its own UPS. I replaced the bad battery in a very old UPS I had laying around and our router and DSL modem are plugged into it.

The old UPS beeps when we have a power twitch. Almost every morning around 5:00-6:00 it beeps. I suspect people are getting up and drawing more power or the power company is preparing for same.

We need a another UPS for the stereo. If we loose power it drop some of its setup. Not real impressed.

I wish we could put in a whole house UPS but I don't think I could afford it.

Later,
Dan

 

[RonMar]

Bit of a side question:
What is the 200 watt load on a pellet stove?
Is this continuous or periodic ?

I'm not complaining but my 8500 watt genset hasn't had a good workout yet.

I use APC 700 and 1000VA UPS and a few smaller ones for things like phone system etc.

Pellet stoves typically have 2 blower and 1 auger motor. One blower for the exhaust gas, which also puts the stove under a vacume and draws combustion air into the burn pot. A second blower moves room air thru the heatexchanger tubes and around the fire box to move the combustion heat into the room. The auger pulses to deliver the pellets to the burn pot at a set rate. Most also have an electric heating element that starts the pellets on fire automatically when you turn it on. During startup, mine uses about 700-800W to run the blowers and heating element. Once lit, it drops back to around 400W running on low. I have a full chimney on mine, and have a good natural draft. Because of this I can shut down my combustion blower and drop it to around 200W

Genset need a load? Look around for some electric baseboard heaters. They are about 250W per foot, and you can usually get these for very little money. They make great generator loadbank elements.

 

[Steve_Miller]

We now have three APC UPSes in the house. Each desktop has its own UPS. I replaced the bad battery in a very old UPS I had laying around and our router and DSL modem are plugged into it.

The old UPS beeps when we have a power twitch. Almost every morning around 5:00-6:00 it beeps. I suspect people are getting up and drawing more power or the power company is preparing for same.

We need a another UPS for the stereo. If we loose power it drop some of its setup. Not real impressed.

I wish we could put in a whole house UPS but I don't think I could afford it.

Later,
Dan

These beeps every morning at the same time are probably created by the power company switching in capacitor banks for power correction. I'll guess and say that there is probably some industry/manufacturing around or near your place on the same grid as you. I used to get these a lot but haven't noticed them in a while.

Steve

 

[jinjimbob]

Those APC UPS systems aren't all that expensive. How many watts would be necessary for a typical desktop and printer setup?

I use an Newegg.com - APC BR1500LCD 1500VA 900 Watts 8 Outlets BACK-UPS - UPS works well for the monitor, PC, router and DSL modem, about a 40 minute run time, configured to shut the PC down when less than 5 minutes of run time left.

What kind of printer? I have a laser printer, uses 610Watts, so that is not on the battery back UPS sockets, just the surge.

Different UPS output different types of power. Most put out pseudo sine waves, kinda like a square/saw tooth wave. I have another UPS that puts out a pure sinewave, needed for fish tank pumps.

 

[Travelover]

..............................What kind of printer?.......

I was thinking of an ink jet

Different UPS output different types of power. Most put out pseudo sine waves, kinda like a square/saw tooth wave. I have another UPS that puts out a pure sinewave, needed for fish tank pumps.

I wondered how true the wave form was on the UPS units. Thinking back to my original concern of protecting a high efficiency furnace's electronics, would a UPS be a practical device to have in series with a furnace?

I seem to recall a guy that was emergency powering his house by feeding the 240v DC of his Prius traction battery to a large UPS unit. If I recall correctly, his furnace didn't like UPS power and he had to build a special circuit to make the furnace work properly.

 

[BobRip]

Bob,
Its not the items you mention that cause problems running on a generator since they don't draw a lot of current. What causes problems is when a high current device such as a 220V well pump, freezer compressor, refrigerator compressor, or A/C unit come on they create a large current draw on a generator. A compressor from fridge/freezer/AC can initially pull over 20A on start up. Add that to the load the generator is already supplying and it causes an overload for a 4K unit. If the generator is not large enough to handle that load the output voltage drops below where it should be which is what you saw as major dimming of lights and TV picture shrinkage. Had your freezer or fridge started as the same time you would have probably tripped the 20A breaker on your Generator.

I do run the refrigerator, 220 volt well, septic tank pump, etc. on the generator. The lights got real dim when the well started on the 5KW gen. I also have an 8KW gen that I usually use when I run the well. I have a large water tank so I can sometimes go many hours without the well. The items I mentioned were to indicate the things that might be damaged by the high current motor items. I don't suggest that you risk your devices.

Oh, I also have surge suppressors on my panels which will clamp spikes. You might get spikes or surges (which are longer term voltage rises) when the motor items cut off and unload the generator. That may be the problem and not the sags or drops. I am not sure why the sags would damage the electronics. I can't explain it and I know quite a bit about electronics, but not everything.
Just to clarify, the surge suppressors are ones that mount in the circuit breaker panel and clamp at 500 volts, not the 1000 volts or so that most use. I had to special order these from Cutler Hammer.

 

[Cat_Driver]

I agree with the whole house unit. I have a computer that runs my pump on my well called an Aquavar system. The utility company spiked and blew my unit 3k work.

I put a line conditioner on before the computer FROM the utility company tp protect the computer and before pump to protect the well. No problems since.

Fro in house units look at these.

UPS power protection, surge protector ? Powerware 5110 UPS

The Powerware 5110 uninterruptible power system (UPS) was designed to provide the best UPS power protection against the threats that lurk in public utilities. This line-interactive UPS system delivers the ultimate in power quality, constantly safeguarding your equipment from power outages, surges, sags, brownouts, and over-voltage conditions謡hile also providing varying degrees of power management for additional threats. If utility power is interrupted, even briefly, the Powerware 5110 transfers to UPS battery power.

Features & Benefits
Protects the integrity of your data and applications by shielding electronic equipment from power outages, surges, sags, brownouts, and over-voltage conditions
Saves space with a compact design that can be deployed as a tower or under a computer monitor
Protects loads on eight outlets - four with surge suppression and battery backup, four with surge suppression only
Delivers consistent, clean output with Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) that doesn稚 drain battery power

 

[tommu56]

We now have three APC UPSes in the house. Each desktop has its own UPS. I replaced the bad battery in a very old UPS I had laying around and our router and DSL modem are plugged into it.

The old UPS beeps when we have a power twitch. Almost every morning around 5:00-6:00 it beeps. I suspect people are getting up and drawing more power or the power company is preparing for same.

We need a another UPS for the stereo. If we loose power it drop some of its setup. Not real impressed.

I wish we could put in a whole house UPS but I don't think I could afford it.

Later,
Dan

There is another thing some of APC ups'es to a selftest were they switch to battery and check battery and switch back.


tom

 

[heehaw]

i have a small APC ups on my satellite receiver and another on my computer: strickly to stop the quick on an offs that we seem to get a lot of: but i do have time to shut down the computer when the power goes off an stays off: if i'm home...i got tired of the satellite receiver shutting off and having to reboot when the power would flicker.
heehaw

 

[Soundguy]

IMHO.. the issue was with a 4k genny having too much load at furnace startup.. and then there was a peak right after the load dropped off.

cycles wouldn't have mattered to the wallwart.. either that.. or the modem just picke dthen to die.. remember.. it's onthe phone line.. why was power out?

I've had inet modems die for no reason... just happens to somethings..

if you didn't have a whole lot of electrical failures at the same time.. i'd call it an isolated incedent..

soundguy

 

[Travelover]

IMHO.. the issue was with a 4k genny having too much load at furnace startup.. and then there was a peak right after the load dropped off.

Right

cycles wouldn't have mattered to the wallwart.. either that.. or the modem just picke dthen to die.. remember.. it's onthe phone line.. why was power out?

Tree fell on electrical lines, but phone / cable lines were not torn down.

I've had inet modems die for no reason... just happens to somethings..

if you didn't have a whole lot of electrical failures at the same time.. i'd call it an isolated incident..

soundguy

Thanks, Soundguy. You may well be right. I just wanted to make sure I learned something by this minor incident in case it was a warning about more expensive problems in the future (i.e. hi efficiency furnace electronics)

 

[Soundguy]

I run expensive electronics of fmy pto genset.. never had a failure I could even remotely attribute to a power issue. ( don't recall having -any- failures while on generated power ).. However I have plenty of failures I KNOW came from grid power... had browns that killed stuff.. had peaks where lotsa lamps got bright for a second and then one or two died... that was a truly weird one... thought a ufo was landing or something.

soundguy

 

[Greenmountain Farmer]

Had a real surge go through the house several years ago. A high voltage feeder line crosses over my entrance line, on a cold Feb night it snapped and dropped across the entrance. Lineman told me my line was hit with 3 surges at 45,000 volts before fuses at sub-station cut out. Lost fridge, microwave and computer, Utility Co wold not go replacement cost prorated everything.
Thank goodness had wood heat,as it was about -20 that night!