Cub Cadet / Kohler -> not so good

[TENet]

I am posting here to maybe help out anyone that might be thinking about any CC product with a Kohler engine. I bought a 2500 series Cub with a Kohler 20HP twin. This was a premium product, not a Home Depot homeowner special. It's always had problems and quirks, but at least it ran. Until today, with 135 hours since new, it's had a major engine failure. An exhaust valve seat fell out, jammed the valve open. The piston is damaged, along with the head, valve, push rod. Add in gaskets, smalls, and labor, transport, etc... and you're talking about a big bill. Plus, no mower for some time.

Take this for what it's worth. I've never been happy with the Kohler product, for several reasons. Today, I am particularly unhappy with it. It's a waste of raw materials, and it's the reason smart folks no longer buy USA. Spend your money where you will, but for me, I would never touch another Kohler product. A $ 1500 engine should last more than 135 hours, and if it doesn't then there should be a warranty to back it up. Should be.

Here's a pic of the head:

 

[greenmule]

Well,its hard to find good stuff in the way of lawnmowers unless you spend 6-7 grand and even than?

I f it has the kohler courage engine,you might have intended to buy premium but they lied to you,many,many complants with the courage motor.

I didn't buy the new cub when I bought one this spring cause they are same company that makes the new troy bilt junk.

I did my home work [I thought] and with my price range was 3 grand give or take,needed at least 50 inch cut,bought a snapper LT200 which was supposed to be a good un too,can't buy in box stores,etc,well it is now back at dealers with a poping/back firing problem,with just 10 hours on it,22 hp b/s intek extended life motor.

So,going to mow my yard this week with my 15 year old sears 25 hp kohler command mower,which still runs fine!!??

 

[TENet]

This is (was) a Kohler Command, CH20. Something has happened to manufacturing, it seems that everything these days is disposable. This was a $4000 lawn mower, which I bought as a leftover for $ 3392. Seemed like a good deal, but since MTD has taken over it's just more material for the landfill.

I don't have the answer, the Briggs Vangaurd seems like a nice product, but no one uses them due to cost. It's all about the short term dollar.

 

[TENet]

Oh, and by the way!!! When the high end Cub Cadet died prematurely, I ended up cutting the lawn with an old Toro push mower that I've owned and used for 22 years. I don't know how old it is, since I bought it used even then for $ 25. Cast aluminum deck, Tecumseh engine, absolutely trouble free.

 

[greenmule]

Yep,that command has a good rep,but that old sears has one and head gasket on it went out at about 60 hours,but got it fixed and it now has over 600 hours,so...

We are in same boat as many I bet[not that that helps].

 

[LBrown59]

You just happened to be un lucky and got a bad one.
This is and exception and certainly not the rule.

I am posting here to maybe help out anyone that might be thinking about any CC product with a Kohler engine. I bought a 2500 series Cub with a Kohler 20HP twin. This was a premium product, not a Home Depot homeowner special. It's always had problems and quirks, but at least it ran. Until today, with 135 hours since new, it's had a major engine failure. An exhaust valve seat fell out, jammed the valve open. The piston is damaged, along with the head, valve, push rod. Add in gaskets, smalls, and labor, transport, etc... and you're talking about a big bill. Plus, no mower for some time.

Take this for what it's worth. I've never been happy with the Kohler product, for several reasons. Today, I am particularly unhappy with it. It's a waste of raw materials, and it's the reason smart folks no longer buy USA. Spend your money where you will, but for me, I would never touch another Kohler product. A $ 1500 engine should last more than 135 hours, and if it doesn't then
*there should be a warranty to back it up. Should be.

Here's a pic of the head:

*What do you mean there was no warranty?

 

[rcbe]

"If it has the kohler courage engine,you might have intended to buy premium but they lied to you,many,many complants with the courage motor."

Here we go again. I've been lurking these tractor boards for around 4 yrs now and just haven't seen many courage complaints/problems. to speak of.
Yes, Kohler did have some commands that were problems (leaking head gaskets) Briggs has its hands full with some of the intek series... some Kawasakis are picky/picky/picky when it comes to clean gas.

Personal dislike of a particular brand/model is one thing.. but to bash out of hand is another. Yep, the courage series is a price point design - won't give you a kazillion hrs of life - and yet may reveal some particullar design weaknress(es). But so far, seems to have held it's ground performance/quality wise.

If there are facts to the otherwise, please share.

 

[TENet]

It's not the Kohler Courage, it's the Kohler Command. As far as brand bashing, well, this is a cheaply made product. It was expensive to buy. During disassembly two bolts broke off in the casting, all four were over-torqued during assembly. The carb mixture is not adjustable. It can only be run at one speed. It uses alot of fuel. It backfires everytime it's shut off. The valves are intermittently noisy. It came from the factory with the engine speed mis-adjusted (cub cadet's fault?). It has always run hot. It lasted 135 hours, and now it's dead. Those are all facts. Maybe I expected to much.

I'm only trying to let the community know my experience so you don't get burned. too.

 

[scoutcub]

tenet -

I have to agree with LBrown, it appears you got a lemon. The Kohler command is a proven engine that's been around for awhile with a good rep. I've owned them for several years/wseveral hundreds of hours and always been happy with them. I've had many more problems with the briggs vanguards I owned.

I'm assuming you're out of the warranty period, or bought it used??
I guess I would be upset if I had all the problems you had and then it lasted for only 135 hours. I'd say you probably wrote this thread shortly after the incident...
You're certainly entitled to your opinions and grudges but warning people off (or bashing) a whole line of engines because of 1 faulty one is not reasonable advice.
I'm sorry for your bad experience and wish you better luck in the future!

 

[Gator6x4]

Tulsa Engine Warehouse sells Honda engine kits for some Cub Cadets to switch from a Kohler engine to the Honda Engine. Give them a call at 1-800-501-8061 and see if they have a Honda Replacement engine for your Cub. A twenty horse power Honda will cost approximately $1,200.00.

 

[greenmule]

I was the one bashing kohler courage motors,not the poster,[you ought to read the entire thing before telling the man that].

And its a fact,those courage motors were put out to soon,many problems,some problems adressed,some not,designed to run less total hours,etc.

Now as far as cub cadet,the same people who own them own the new troy bilt junk,and every one knows the cubs of today ain't the cubs of old.

But will say its not just a cub problem,most[all brands have gotten cheaper],so if that makes you feel any better,grab on to it.

 

[TENet]

Gator, Thanks for the Honda engine lead. I'll look into it. The exhaust could be an issue, though, as well as the connection for shaft drive, but it's worth a shot. I don't mind $1200 if it fixes a $ 4K tractor.

If I got a lemon, so be it, but all you Kohler-lovers should at least admit there are some lemons out there, and some people are getting screwed. I did buy it new, and I did get Kohler-ized.

 

[TENet]

greenmule - yes, everything seems to be junk these days. A symptom of our times. All the old-line quality brands have been bought up by big corporations who cash in on the name and let the product suffer. It's shameful.

 

[rcbe]

"And its a fact,those courage motors were put out to soon,many problems,some problems adressed,some not,designed to run less total hours,etc."

Allegations, perhaps - but, not facts.

 

[greenmule]

Well a fact to me is if you tell me your kohler courage motor blowed up[cause,why would you lie to me,I don't even know you?},now do a search for tractor lawnmower web site talk forums,if you read enough,you'll come to same conclusion I did,[well maybe not],but like I said,did some research when buying new mower this spring,and didn't buy courage,but the really sad part,is after doing said research and learning that those courage motors were having major problems,bought a LT200 snapper,with a b/s motor,well,that briggs motor with 10 hours or so started popping and backfiring,its now at dealers,so........

 

[cdcole]

The old Cub Cadets with the cast iron Kohlers and hydrostatic transmissions were the best. BTW - if you do go with the Honda - ensure drop in capability. I put a Honda in a John Deere 317 and it took me two weekends - it worked but it was not a drop in. A drop in can be switched in 3-4 hours.

 

[diesel_nut]

Been reading on here a while and this is the first Command engine problem I have seen.

 

[greenmule]

Well you must not read real carefull,cause I said my 15 year old sears lawnmower had a kohler command and at about 60 hours blew a head gasket.

In this thread.

SEARS,CUB HUSKY,whatever,kohler command is a kohler command.

 

[VinceSMTA]

I had the end cap of a rod on Honda fall off after about 4 years of use (I would guess with about 160 hrs...no hour meter on it) and wreck the engine. Does this mean that all Honda's are junk. I really don't think so. With anything mechanical you run the risk of break downs, its just the way it is. I ended up ordering another Honda to put in the sod cutter and its been running strong for over 6 years now...probably the best purchase I ever put on the boss's credit card! I guess what I am saying is that with any engine manufacturer there is going to be a percentage of engines in which they put out that are going to fail no matter what. That's just the way it goes. I would have no trouble recommending a Command engine to a friend as it is widely used in all types of applications and by many different manufacturers. Hopefully you have better luck with your next engine, no matter what brand. Good Luck

 

[savageactor7]

TENet go here and see how the poster Avalancher finally got a rep to get him a new engine. Pretty sure the solution is on the last couple of pages.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=73417&highlight=avalancher+tractor

As far as I'm concerned MTD brought disgrace to the 'made in America' phrase. Sure go ahead and build entry level stuff but don't tell me people won't pay more for quality.