Ford 2009 V-10

[Dargo]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/1656799-post31.html

And, not to argue with you, since I agree with you on most everything else, something just isn't getting through. I could give you names and numbers of a couple dozen contractors who can verify what I've experienced. When diesel is considerably less expensive than gasoline, sure, there is a savings. The other issue is that you can consult any UOA lab and they'll tell you that a diesel engine will contaminate your oil faster than a gasoline engine. Why in the world would you go twice as long between changes?? I'm completely aware of oil additive packages in oil to keep the TBN higher in diesel oil, but you can also run that in gas engines if you want. The stronger additives in diesel rated oil is to get the oil to last as long as it would in a gasoline engine.

With some of the new diesel technology where passenger vehicles get 50% better fuel economy with diesel and the cost of diesel fuel being similar to gasoline, the line between the two gets closer if not leaning towards diesel. However, if it were in fact cheaper to run diesel, you'd see most of the vehicles (especially pickup trucks) in this country being diesel powered. Those numbers speak for themselves on people doing the math. If the average guy could own, operate and run a diesel powered vehicle cheaper than he would a gasoline engine, gasoline engines would become all but obsolete. Not many people would pay more money to run a gas engine if it were cheaper to go diesel. Ask some more people and look around. I assume that I'm just not explaining clearly enough, due to my limited skills of description through a computer screen, how your missing the boat on this particular issue.

 

[Duffster]

And, not to argue with you, since I agree with you on most everything else, something just isn't getting through. I could give you names and numbers of a couple dozen contractors who can verify what I've experienced. When diesel is considerably less expensive than gasoline, sure, there is a savings. The other issue is that you can consult any UOA lab and they'll tell you that a diesel engine will contaminate your oil faster than a gasoline engine. Why in the world would you go twice as long between changes?? I'm completely aware of oil additive packages in oil to keep the TBN higher in diesel oil, but you can also run that in gas engines if you want. The stronger additives in diesel rated oil is to get the oil to last as long as it would in a gasoline engine.

With some of the new diesel technology where passenger vehicles get 50% better fuel economy with diesel and the cost of diesel fuel being similar to gasoline, the line between the two gets closer if not leaning towards diesel. However, if it were in fact cheaper to run diesel, you'd see most of the vehicles (especially pickup trucks) in this country being diesel powered. Those numbers speak for themselves on people doing the math. If the average guy could own, operate and run a diesel powered vehicle cheaper than he would a gasoline engine, gasoline engines would become all but obsolete. Not many people would pay more money to run a gas engine if it were cheaper to go diesel. Ask some more people and look around. I assume that I'm just not explaining clearly enough, due to my limited skills of description through a computer screen, how your missing the boat on this particular issue.

I guess we will never agree on this Dargo.

Part of the problem is the varying price of fuel between regions. If you use the 14 mpg for your diesel in my figures, fuel is still cheaper per mile to run the diesel, which was my point all along.

I sub from a large excavating contractor that buys about 6-8 trucks a year, some used and some new, he wouldn't consider gas trucks even when fuel got as high as it did. Maybe he is wrong but I will have to believe someone worth a couple hundred million.

I am certainly not trying to say that a diesel makes sense for everyone but I just chuckle when people take a diesel out of the equation just because diesel costs more than gas. It is very close minded IMO.

Diesel makes sense for me when you factor in longevity and/or resale on top of fuel efficency, and this is with Fords. The math gets better with a Chevy or a Dodge from what I can see.

Just out of curiosity, how often do you change or oil?

 

[Dargo]

Ah taint gonna argue wid ya! We agree on most everthing else.

I go about 5k miles between oil changes on most vehicles I own. I qualify it with "most" vehicles because some high performance old muscle cars I have likely don't get 500 miles between changes but I've had UOA come back with some signs that the oil was changing due to time and extremely short runs in about a year's time. I don't figure they really count, but some people keep the same oil in their similar vehicles for 5 years or so. UOA's I've seen on such seem to show a lot of both fuel and water in the oil after all that time even with only a couple thousand miles max on the oil. I just can't see a guy doing that when he's got over 30k in the engine.

BTW, my V10 is gonna hit "time" long before miles for an oil change with conditions with fuel costs the way they are now. When I get better MPG with my diesel truck and the fuel is cheaper I drive it most all the time. Besides, I sort of have my diesel hot rodded a bit and it's sort of fun to drive, if you know what I mean.

*edit*
I've only used Blackstone for UOAs. I'm thinking about doing one on my 1500 hour Kubota diesel powered Grasshopper mower. I was wondering if anybody here prefers another lab for UOA. And, yes, the only UOA I did on my V10 Ford came back fine but some of the additive package components were starting to fade.

 

[Hematite]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/1656799-post31.html

Nobody needs to agree with me but it is pretty tough to argue with my numbers.

It really ISN'T hard to argue with your numbers.

When I have priced oil changes they are FOUR times more for a diesel not 2x. Diesel fuel filters once a year are NOT a wash because they are a LOT more expensive.
Actual service on a diesel engine is much more costly per hour.
Don't ever take longevity for granted on a diesel. My route truck with a Cummins diesel went 105K miles before the seal between the injector pump and the engine blew and pumped the crankcase full of diesel and blew the engine. Where did I save money? Not on a new engine.
And NO, diesels don't sound good they are noisy and stink.

....and that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Duffster]

It really ISN'T hard to argue with your numbers.

When I have priced oil changes they are FOUR times more for a diesel not 2x. Diesel fuel filters once a year are NOT a wash because they are a LOT more expensive.
Actual service on a diesel engine is much more costly per hour.
Don't ever take longevity for granted on a diesel. My route truck with a Cummins diesel went 105K miles before the seal between the injector pump and the engine blew and pumped the crankcase full of diesel and blew the engine. Where did I save money? Not on a new engine.
And NO, diesels don't sound good they are noisy and stink.

....and that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Any engine of any brand, gas or diesel, can lay down early.

For a Cummins to give up at 105k is obviously a fluke.

But it had probably already paid for itself so it really didn't owe anyone anything anyway.

 

[Hematite]

Any engine of any brand, gas or diesel, can lay down early.

For a Cummins to give up at 105k is obviously a fluke.

But it had probably already paid for itself so it really didn't owe anyone anything anyway.

Yes, that was a fluke but, according to some research, it's not impossible for it to happen, just unlikely. That was a 1988 engine so new ones may have a different seal. Anyway, that taught me never to accept a "truism" at face value. By the way I did put 250,000 miles on the replacement Cummins till it went to its next driver.

Then again, I also put 256,000 miles on my Ford Tempo commuter car till the rust got the better of it. That engine still ran like a swiss watch and gave 35 mpgs.

To me what it comes down to is that if you choose your vehicle/ engine wisely, according to YOUR needs and use, you will be satisfied with the results.

 

[RobJ]

Over the years I've talked ot a lot of diesel owners, some I knew...some I didn't. All say the 20+ mpg isn't real...or they ALL never have seen it. I was especially impressed with the guys I talked to at the pump, they didn't know me, could have told me anything.

I always chuckle at the I can go twice as long on an oil change to. Heck I could go 10k on an oil change if I wanted to to.

And the gas engine won't last that long. Got 200k on my old 1990 351. It was still going when I traded it. The tranny blew at 175k.

And another on the long life of the diesel, who cares, people who argure this point on thedieselstop.com years ago traded trucks every 2 years. Folks who keep them longer are few and far between. Maybe some will keep them longer these days.

If I got a good deal on a diesel, I'd probably have one, but such is life.

 

[Builder]

I've also had such conversations with V-10 guys who all admit after a few beers their trucks can't even manage 10 MPG empty.....

I kept my last diesel for 9 years. Changed my own oil for $45.

What value is placed on 150-200 ft lbs of torque stock diesel over gas? I guess the gas guys place nothing on that advantage, but I do. I like being able to move my load off the line with greater ease & less fuel consumption.

The guys that don't understand the value of a diesel over gas are usually the guys that never towed anything with a diesel with any degree of repetition. I can see Rob J's point. Basically, he never uses his truck for anything but commuting to a bus station, so why would he buy a diesel? He doesn't need the power & economy of a diesel truck because he doesn't need a truck for heavy towing.

However, if you tow heavy, a diesel really broadens the advantage gap over gas. The fuel mileage of the diesel might drop 10-20%. The fuel mileage of a gas engine drops 40-50% when pulling 10K ++.

 

[Duffster]

Over the years I've talked ot a lot of diesel owners, some I knew...some I didn't. All say the 20+ mpg isn't real...or they ALL never have seen it. I was especially impressed with the guys I talked to at the pump, they didn't know me, could have told me anything.

I always chuckle at the I can go twice as long on an oil change to. Heck I could go 10k on an oil change if I wanted to to.

And the gas engine won't last that long. Got 200k on my old 1990 351. It was still going when I traded it. The tranny blew at 175k.

And another on the long life of the diesel, who cares, people who argure this point on thedieselstop.com years ago traded trucks every 2 years. Folks who keep them longer are few and far between. Maybe some will keep them longer these days.

If I got a good deal on a diesel, I'd probably have one, but such is life.

20+ Can be done. I went on a ~1000 mile round trip with a Cummins last week and got ~21 mpg.

People that trade every 2 years might not realize the benefit of long life but the realize the better resale.

 

[Ryan03]

I regularly see 20 to 21 mpg on the freeway on roadtrips in the summer monthes. The avg is around 18mpg with mixed city and highway driving. The best I ever saw out of my V-10 reg cab 4x4 dually with an auto and 4:30's was 12mpg, normaly it was closer to 10 or 11mpg.

Whether or not somebody beleives the mpg numbers I have posted , or thinks I bought the wrong truck, the wrong engine, or the wrong color is of no concern to me , as I bought it to serve me, not them.

I agree a gas engine in a fullsize pickup today can see 150k or more if it leads the proper type of life. I bet a v10 ford, 6.0 GM or a 5.7 hemi dodge could obtain that pretty easily if it were used as a commuter most of the time, and did not tow any real weight on long grades. However, hitch up a 28 foot enclosed with a race car in it, and tow up through Fancy gap in Virginia 5 or 6 times a year with one of those gassers screaming at 3500 or 4000 rpm for 4 or 5 miles climbing a grade, the odds are you will be changing that gasser out at around 120k or so. I am basing this on a buddies V10 I replaced for him about a year ago with a broken timing chain, and my brother in laws old 1500 ram with a magnum 360. Two cracked cylinder heads in 5 years before he traded up to a diesel.

There is considerably more to picking the correct engine for the application than a couple of mathematical formulas for oil changes and fuel cost on a message board. How about how much weight will you be towing for how many miles through what terrain at what elevation, do you own a business with your own fueling terminal, if so, what fuel are you set up to dispense, will the vehicle be used for short commuting or long trips, winter driving, if so how cold etc. etc.

It always amuses me when somebody thinks that they bought the only good type of truck, and every one else with something different bought one that was to under powered, or spent to much on a big engine that they probably almost never need anyway. The reality of the situation is the reason we have so many different combinations of chassis and driveline configurations is because there are so many people with so many different needs to fill with they're trucks. One mans perfect do everything truck may be another mans lemon. Buy what you like and be happy with it, don't waste your breath trying to convince somebody else they should have bought exactly what you did.