422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.

   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #31  
May I suggest, from a cold start, I have better luck with starting at idle. With my 422 the thing needs to fire off and heat up before you can get and speed up. If I add any throttle or choke from a cold start all I do is flood the thing out. I must say that I live just North of Hades is South Louisiana so a cold start is a relative thing.
 
   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #32  
Let me suggest , to take out the plugs, and lay them on the engine, and turn the ign switch on, and bump the engine around several times to check for a good spark. Make sure the gap is set right. The wrong gap will change timing.
 
   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #33  
ldabe,

Do you know for sure that you have spark? Did you try starter fluid?

Is there spark? If there is I have had good luck warming up plugs with the propane torch and then installing them quickly. Add this to turning the engine over with no spark plugs in.
 
   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#34  
JJ, yes I plan on doing this, hopefully tomorrow...hopefully.

Bob Rip,

Are you kidding?
I have said it before (and you have added fuel to the fire, no pun intended) I will NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ROBIN ENGINE!

Going to some of the "extremes" that some have mentioned over many different posts, and basically have to tuck it into bed with you at night, after singing it a little lullaby, and given it a kiss on the cheek, is JUST RIDICULUS!

Sorry for all the exclamation points Bob Rip, nothing against you, it is Robin.
 
   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #35  
Bottom line; the robin is a carbureted engine, and it is showing the symptoms of a common problem eventually shared by all small carbureted engines: stuck or clogged float valve, or waterlogged float. If it was a Kohler, chances of this happening are the same. After you run enough gas through the engine, eventually you might have to clean the carburetor, especially if the engine sits for any length of time idle with the carburetor bowl filled with gasoline.

The float (part 9) controls the needle valve (part 8) to keep the level of fuel in the bowl constant. This "bowl" provides a constant source of fuel to the main jet, through which the fuel is sucked into the incoming air.

If this valve sticks open, the bowl will quickly overflow through the air vent tube, putting a puddle of gas into your carburetor (and in a gravity filled system like this, it could result in putting gasoline into the crankcase, like you reported initially). The fuel solenoid just stops fuel from leaving the fuel bowl and entering the carburetor intake through the main jet when the engine is turned off. With a sticking jet, there is still a path for fuel flow into the carburetor even with the solenoid turned off. With a stuck jet, when you do get the engine started, it might act like it is running rich initially, but when you open the throttle, the bowl will quickly empty, starving the engine of fuel and causing it to stall.

One suggestion is to tap on the side of the carburetor sharply with a wrench next to the fuel inlet tube. You may here a "tink" when the valve comes unstuck, although this will not permanently solve the problem.

Carburetor rebuilds are not actually that hard. All that means is disassembly and cleaning and replacing gaskets and the needle valve. Maybe an hour of work (if you end up with some gaskets that are difficult to scrape off of their sealing surfaces). You don't have to (want to) do it bent over your engine... two bolts and the carburetors off and you can do the fiddly stuff at the workbench (you could also just pop the carburator off and drop it off at a small engine repair shop for rebuild if getting the whole tractor there is too difficult).

The robin service manual doesn't walk you through the rebuild, but there are dozens of generic small engine repair manuals that would cover this. I haven't rebuilt my robin, but I have done this on a number of outboard engines and lawnmowers. YMMV.

You have probably spent more money so far on parts then a small engine shop would charge for a carburetor rebuild. That is the irony of troubleshooting; you always spend more money on finding out what the problem is rather then actually repairing it.

If you want to avoid this sort of problem, then you need a fuel injected engine (or a diesel). Of course, that adds to an exponential increase in engine complexity, and 1000 hours later you will probably be dealing with electronics based starting problems.

Pictures from the Robin service manual:
http://www.robinamerica.com/media/manuals/128937872760282500.pdf

robin_carburator.JPG


Instead of using a propane torch to dry out your engine after flooding with gas, I would just take the sparkplugs out of the engine and leave them on the bench overnight to dry out and allow fuel vapors to leave the cylinders.
 
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   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #36  
JJ, yes I plan on doing this, hopefully tomorrow...hopefully.

Bob Rip,

Are you kidding?
I have said it before (and you have added fuel to the fire, no pun intended) I will NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ROBIN ENGINE!

Going to some of the "extremes" that some have mentioned over many different posts, and basically have to tuck it into bed with you at night, after singing it a little lullaby, and given it a kiss on the cheek, is JUST RIDICULUS!

Sorry for all the exclamation points Bob Rip, nothing against you, it is Robin.


I have used this warming of spark plugs on many different engines - Chevy V, Briggs and Stratton, Honda etc. It's just a technique for getting an engine started when it's flooded or very cold or has not ben run for a long time. This is not unique to Robin. I have 800 plus hours on my engine. I expect to do carb cleaning, fuel line replacement, etc. at this age. I have run this engine harder than any small engine I have owned. The environment is extremely dirty. I am pleased with the engine in general.
 
   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #37  
Unfortunately, you have a systematic problem that has never been fixed/identified and so you continue getting the negative reinforcement each time you use the thing.

It could be either the carb or the fuel pump. The engine crankcase pressure pumps can also develop pinhole leaks and either suck air or flood the crankcase. Since this is a 4 stroke, flooding the crankcase will not produce rich running symptoms, but this was one of the problems I had with a mercury outboard.

If you are not sure of the carb, get a primer bulb and some fuel line and fill the carb using the primer bulb. If you can not get the bulb to become firm (or if you see fuel spilling out the carb inlet), then you know for a fact that there is a problem with the float/needle/seat. Until that issue is resolved, you can always expect the engine to be a bear to start. If the oil doesn't stink of gass, maybe the fuel pump is OK.

When last did you replace the spark plug ? Sometimes you get a dud, its a fact of life.

I have said it before (and you have added fuel to the fire, no pun intended) I will NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ROBIN ENGINE!

Going to some of the "extremes" that some have mentioned over many different posts, and basically have to tuck it into bed with you at night, after singing it a little lullaby, and given it a kiss on the cheek, is JUST RIDICULUS!

Sorry for all the exclamation points Bob Rip, nothing against you, it is Robin.
 
   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #38  
It could be either the carb or the fuel pump...When last did you replace the spark plug ?
New plugs and fuel pump in post #291, so we are narrowing down on the culprit.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/149637-422-robin-eng-problems-again-3.html#post1736395

When you replaced the fuel line/fuel filter, did you ensure that you completely filled the filter with gasoline? The elbow in the bottom of the tank and the fuel line routing means that the filter might not refill on its own. Last time I did that, I had to get the filter refilled by squeezing the fuel line to move fuel and holding the filter vertical to ensure all the bubbles left it. Which is why the bottom of my tank no longer has a 90 degree elbow, and the fuel filter is now (more or less) right underneath the fuel tank and vertical (so now it is self-priming).

I still think the problem is the float valve.
 
   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#39  
Tim, yes the fuel filter was full. It wasn't lack of fuel but too much.

Anyways, I didn't get back to it till yesterday and did what one of the posters (can't find it right now) said to do when he starts his:

Don't use the choke, and little if any throttle. It fired right up!

I drove it around a little, and everything sounded and operated fine.

I will take it for another drive hopefully today, and then maybe try and do some work with it and see how it does.

Thanks to all for your input.

Btw, the "pulse fuel pump" I bought from a parts dealer was a Honda, at the cost of $10.95! (Man, what a big price range depending on who makes the pump, or sells the pump.)
 
   / 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #40  
Congratulations. I hope it keeps running for you. Was the Honda pump identical with same mounting holes and pressure?
 

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