Who has the most hours on their Kioti?

[Aaron_D]

And just for the record, I'd sure like to hear just ONE situation where weight can be "a SEVERE disadvantage".

Don't think that its a "severe" disadvantage but its not an advantage when mowing the lawn or doing other turf work (thus why flotation tires exist). If was an advantage then I wouldn't have any use for the "other" tractor and I wouldn't have answer when asked "and why can't the new tractor mow the lawn?"

Arguing about weight is like arguing about tractor size, one size does not fit all. The needs for a golf course and somebody dragging a plow are different and both could argue their side correctly for their needs.

 

[Dargo]

FYI, Dargo is often kinda gruff and blunt. One should not take offense. I doubt seriously he is trying to pick a fight here. He has been a secret admirer of Kioti tractors for a while and I suspect he would own one if there was in fact a local dealer he trusted.

His point is technically correct regarding weight but as others have pointed out he chose to take literally the comment that "heavier is better" when I am sure he and all others know that it is only one factor in choosing a good tractor and that it is sometimes not true (eg lawn mowing).

Yes, you are correct that I've been a supporter or Kioti tractors for a while and was trying to get a great dealer to carry them. There's no need for me to go into the long litany of jobs where excessive weight is a detriment to a tractor. I'll just be gruff and blunt again; if you can't figure that out, I have no desire to educate you until you've reached a higher level of understanding machinery.

What is really unfortunate is that there are quite a few Kioti owners who are well educated and know what they have and bought it for a particular reason but those people are mostly drowned out by those who haven't a clue about tractors, machinery, engineering etc., and make a complete fool out of themselves by parroting incorrect and, sometimes, hilarious sales pitches by weak salespeople taking advantage of the majority of Kioti owners, who are indeed first time owners. It's painfully clear that in order to grow, Kioti is going to have to distance themselves from the little yard barn roadside lots that sell Kioti as well as the misinformed first time owners who don't do Kioti any favors with their outlandish statements. Trust me, if a dealer who has grown up in the business of selling tractors their entire life constantly has owners of a particular brand of tractor, Kioti, telling them that they've been wrong for the last 60 years in everything they do and wrong with what they've been selling, I can see where that business owner would have absolutely no interest in bringing on all of the issues that would come with the customer base. This thread is in fact proof of that problem.

Kioti has their work cut out for them. First they need to establish a far better dealer network which we see isn't easy. Next, what dealer wants to pick up a line of tractors where, far more so than any other brand, existing owners want to disparage other brand owners. If you don't believe me on that point, just look at the Kioti section on this website. There are more points of contention, adversarial positions and more just plain incorrect statements made by Kioti owners than all other brand owners combined. Kioti makes a great piece of equipment, but I wouldn't want the baggage that comes with the brand. Seeing what my friend saw, I would have chosen Mahindra as well. I personally view Kioti and Mahindra both as well made tractors, but you won't find 1/10th of the bickering in the Mahindra section as you do the Kioti section. I started out asking a simple question and ended up being attacked. As I said, I'd have to pass on picking up a franchise where most of their customers are first time owners with attitudes. I wish Kioti well. I really do. They have huge barriers clearly setup in front of them that are going to make it very difficult for them to progress. I can't say whether that fact is due to their dealers or the type of customers they attracted. Unfortunately, it looks like they are going to be rather stuck in the market position where they are for a while.

 

[IslandTractor]

Next, what dealer wants to pick up a line of tractors where, far more so than any other brand, existing owners want to disparage other brand owners. If you don't believe me on that point, just look at the Kioti section on this website. There are more points of contention, adversarial positions and more just plain incorrect statements made by Kioti owners than all other brand owners combined..

While I agree completely that Kioti's big challenge is the dealer network, I think you are grossly overstating the impact of a few dozen TBN members who are active on the Kioti forum. It is hard to imagine that an intelligent and sophisticated business owner would seriously be swayed by the peanut gallery on a tractor forum when making a franchising decision. Probably 95% of Kioti owners in the country have never heard of TBN and are therefore certainly not bickering here for starters. There are relatively few color war posts these days in general and it is stretching things to say that a simple argument about weight of tractors is inflammatory. Of course there are pros and cons for any tractor attribute that would favor one brand over another but arguing that heavy is better is not the same as saying "Kubota sucks".

Yes there have been unpleasant times on TBN but I think your memory is a bit too good too as you are describing a situation that existed about three years ago but that really doesn't ring true about the forum today. There is not nearly the defensiveness that existed back then. Try going to the JD forum and make some crack about green tractors and pot metal and you'll get just as vociferous a response as you would here.

The big challenges for the brand IMO are 1) size and quality of dealer network, 2) well established big three competition, 3) difficulty breaking out of value tractor status due to #1 and #2 and declining value of US$. Finally #4, they have limited time to establish Kioti as a serious player (big 4 or 5) before the Chinese get their quality up and clean everyone's clocks.

Peace.

 

[Dargo]

I gotta be careful what I say because I poked my nose in a bit much trying to get him to take on Kioti (nothing against Mahindra, but that 90 hp Kioti sure has my interest). I'm not quite sure how to carefully word it, but maybe if I say that Kioti went from basically requiring a signature to wanting all sorts of commitments from a new dealer I may convey the gist of the issue? Some here clearly are mistakenly reading into my posts that I have something against Kioti. I think you know that's not true. It was when I was making rather firm statements about how well Kioti tractors were built that I was challenged with coming up with some references of such owners. That's where I'll admit that I was let down here. I thought that wouldn't be an issue since, without any doubt, TBN is the largest group of Kioti owners in one place shy of Kioti's own customer database.

When this business owner was asking me pretty well every day about all these references I said I was sure I could get and all I was getting here, for the most part, were sarcastic pot shots at me, I just said 'forget it'. I can tell you that when Mahindra goes to court a nice sized dealer, they come in prepared with a nice well qualified list of references of not only dealers but, perhaps more importantly, owners with several thousand hours on their machines. I can tell you that if they are competing for the same dealer as Kioti, they'll crush Kioti because they are far more prepared. I tried to help Kioti, I got ragged on, Kioti missed an opportunity and it's over. I'll know better next time.

 

[TheRegMan]

Good Post Island Tractor. I haven't been a member here long and do not currently even own a tractor (getting a new one in Jan.) but I do think the idea of color wars is kind of dumb and immature.

I'll tell you right up front that either Kubota, Massey, JD and NH would serve my needs well and I would be proud to own either of them. However, when making a significant purrchase like this, as most do, I research and find what I feel provides the best value for me with value being a determined by quality, capability, price, warranty and dealer support. Here is how I have concluded the Kioti is best FOR ME:

1. QUALITY - I am satisfied with the info I have gotten that the quality is as good as the Big 4 mentioned above. It's interesting that when I spoke to the Kubota dealer, I let him know up front I was looking strongly at the Kioti and he stated he previously sold Kioti's and the only bad thing he could say about them was that it could be difficult to get parts at times. From what I am seeing here on TBN, that is probably no longer the case.

2. CAPABILITY - I plan to do some heavyy duty FEL work so the lift cability on the KL401 was a big factor and far surpassed the others.

3. PRICE - DK40SE HST priced better than the Kubota 3940. While I haven't gotten dealer quotes on the others, I suspect they are not too far off the Kubota.

4. Warranty - Excellent and far surpassing the others. I can take care of the little issues that come up and I can take it 250 miles in the event of a major problem I can't repair.

5. DEALER SUPPORT - It sucks based upon the small dealer network. No other way to look at it.

I can tell you that I certainly don't think of myself as an uninformed redneck that formed his opinion on simple statements made by a dealer.

I had a Kubota L3400 which I bought new in 2007. It was a very good tractor and I thoroughly enjoyed it although I would not by another. I would definitely be happy to have a Kubota Grand series tractor in the event I decided for one reason or another not to buy the Kioti.

 

[MichiganIron]

This has been an excellent discussion. It's not too often when the color/brand issue comes up that you can actaully gain important insight into what customers like or dislike about a brand. There have been some well thought out comments in this thread.

Some of this is a timeline issue. Although KIOTI Tractors have been available in the US since 1985, KIOTI Tractor Division / Daedong USA was established in 1997. 12 years is not a lot of time to establish a rooted brand presence and dealer network in a very competitive market.

As far as KIOTI Tractors fitting into a commercial market, we have a lot of commercial customers, and the Bobcat comment made earlier in this thread speaks for itself. The KIOTI 4-year warranty is a good indicator of the brand reliability. They offer it because they can, not because they have to.

We carry KIOTI Tractors because it has been good business decision for us.

 

[TheRegMan]

oooh-rah Michigan Iron

 

[Dargo]

We carry KIOTI Tractors because it has been good business decision for us.

Hopefully you can see that all I was trying to do was convince a guy with "a whole lotta money" and, honestly, a great family reputation, that Kioti would be good for them. I'd say it's a fair statement to say that Kioti is most certainly looking into improving/expanding (in a very specific fashion) their dealer network. I'd have to assume that Kioti and Mahindra are fighting for the same piece of the market and similar dealers based upon what I've learned in the last couple of weeks. Again, not to knock Mahindra by any means, I was just trying to get Kioti in an area where they basically have no representation. I was just sort of surprised when some here seemed to think I was attacking Kioti. That reminded me of a few years ago here when if you didn't end nearly every post with some tribute to Kioti you were accused of being a Kioti basher. LOL Hopefully those insecure owners have calmed down or moved on.

 

[steve0413]

Dargo said, "There's no need for me to go into the long litany of jobs where excessive weight is a detriment to a tractor. I'll just be gruff and blunt again; if you can't figure that out, I have no desire to educate you until you've reached a higher level of understanding machinery." LOL.

That and many similar remarks is why you felt that people were attacking you. During this entire discussion you have seemed to be extremely sensitive and defensive to almost every response even when people were trying to educate YOU. I don't know your age or experience, but I can bet I was working tractors way before you were in diapers. They include a long line of JD's, International Harvesters, Case, Mahindra and now Kioti's ranging from 25hp to 180hp.

My weight comment was in reference to getting the most work out of each horse that's under the hood. A 35hp tractor with proper weight will out work, not mow, a 45hp with inadequate weight. I don't need extra weight when my tractor is sitting still running my PTO generator, but when I or you or anyone else is doing "tractor work", pulling a plow, pushing trees, logging, hauling dirt, etc. weight is ALWAYS a good thing. That's what I meant.

I hope you will refrain from thinking you need to educate others on here who you deem to be inferior in their knowledge of machinery. There's no place on here for any "greater than thou" attitude I don't care how "rich" your friend is.

 

[Dargo]

Dargo said, "There's no need for me to go into the long litany of jobs where excessive weight is a detriment to a tractor. I'll just be gruff and blunt again; if you can't figure that out, I have no desire to educate you until you've reached a higher level of understanding machinery." LOL.

That and many similar remarks is why you felt that people were attacking you. During this entire discussion you have seemed to be extremely sensitive and defensive to almost every response even when people were trying to educate YOU. I don't know your age or experience, but I can bet I was working tractors way before you were in diapers. They include a long line of JD's, International Harvesters, Case, Mahindra and now Kioti's ranging from 25hp to 180hp.

My weight comment was in reference to getting the most work out of each horse that's under the hood. A 35hp tractor with proper weight will out work, not mow, a 45hp with inadequate weight. I don't need extra weight when my tractor is sitting still running my PTO generator, but when I or you or anyone else is doing "tractor work", pulling a plow, pushing trees, logging, hauling dirt, etc. weight is ALWAYS a good thing. That's what I meant.

I hope you will refrain from thinking you need to educate others on here who you deem to be inferior in their knowledge of machinery. There's no place on here for any "greater than thou" attitude I don't care how "rich" your friend is.

Unfortunately, if you feel that the weight of a tractor is a sign of quality, I'll never consider you someone as someone who knows something about tractors. As I clearly stated, if you fail to understand the huge differences in when weight is an attribute and when it is a detriment, I have nothing to discuss with you. It's pretty dang common knowledge that it's a whole lot easier to add weight than to take dead weight away. I can tell you for an absolute fact that there are just as many situations where more weight is a problem in CUT and utility sized tractors as it's an attribute. I didn't feel at all that you attacking me, I only saw that you have a lot to learn about machinery. Sorry, I just call it as I see it.