Buying Advice 1st Breakdown - Need advice

[Gregster613]

Well it happened sooner than I expected but what can ya say? Was doing some loader work this afternoon and I hear a "Hissss" look down and see a stream of fluid shooting out just behind the left front tire. I jump off, get a closer look, whoops - I quickly high-tailed it over to the garage and shut her down. The hyd hose going to the bottom & rear of the gear pump had been rubbing against the loader frame and just blew out. I'd never noticed it rubbing before...course why should I be inspecting the fitment of hoses on a brand-new machine? Anyhow, I can see where it attaches to the pump but it then routes up under the cowling below the stearing(sp?) wheel and I have no idea where it ends up at? I have no service parts manual (or active dealer for that matter) and I would just as soon fix it myself. I realize that these kinds of things eventually just happen. I know that because it's new hoses should be covered under warranty but I don't have an active TYM dealer close to me and I'd rather just get it fixed as soon as possible.
So my questions are - - Does any 273 owner out there know where this hose is routed to? Has anyone else had to replace their hose yet? Do I need to dissasemble the entire cowling to get access? Does it end up at or originate from the loader valve? The engine was hot so I couldn't get my hands up in close, but it looked like it "might" just cross over to the loader valve. If so, man what a tight fitment to get it out and back in!!!!
Suggestions, advice, guideance, encouragement...I'm up for any and all.
Thanks for listening....Gregster613

 

[myyaz33]

pm sent

 

[Bkjohns]

myyaz33, did you happen to send him a service manual .pdf file? If not, I have one I could send if I can get an email address for him.

 

[LAWALLSTRACTOR]

With out looking into it more I would guess it is a power steering line.

 

[myyaz33]

I just took a look at mine today and although I did not see any wear on the hose, I can easily see where it could rub. Will have to keep an eye on it.

I believe the OP has a copy of the service manual now.

 

[Gregster613]

Mucho many thanks to MYYAZ33, that file you sent me was exactly what I've been after since getting my 273! I'm pretty sure that hose #9 on page 4-17 is my culprit hose. I haven't yet torn it apart cause after thinking on it for awhile I decided that I'd better call TYM in the AM and ensure that if I do disassemble I won't affect my warranty in any way. It shouldn't, but I'd rather be sure than sorry. I thought that it looked like the hose from the 1st pump and (sorta) looked [from my limited external view] that it was headed in the direction of the loader valve. Without further disassembly I'm still not totally sure but I'd put $ on it being the hose I was talking bout. After viewing the disassembly instructions it sure takes alot of minor items apart to get a clear view of it and I'm thinking that if I remove it from the loader side that if'n I tie some string or wire to it I can just feed it through without all of the costly shop expense (required hours) of getting it replaced. I'd like to get one that's about 3 inches longer and re-direct the attachment at the pump end so that it will hang alongside of the loader arm vice rubbing against it. I'm also going to cut up a piece of bicycle tire to wrap around the hose at the section by the loader for further protection. I'd suggest that other 233/273 owners also consider the tire wrap idea also. I'd never given any thought/worry about the hose rubbing against the loader frame. I figured it was good enough for TYM engineers, good enough for me. Ha! My mistake.
Anyhow, I just want my beast fixed and it'll probably be faster if I do it myself. Just want to be clear/square with TYM so that I don't jeopardize my warranty. I plan on useing it for that occasion that I hope will never come -- ie...some kind of major malfunction, engine, tranny,etc., etc.
Thanks for the file MYYAZ33 and the advise from everyone else. I'm not fixed yet but I feel that I'm sure on the right pathway now. Man, it's just so great to have a whole network of assistance, suggestions, guideance, advice, and "Oh yeah I've done that" right at the fingertips! Thanks to all TBN'ers...... Gregster613

 

[snshall]

I have had 3 hoses burst. Both steering cylinder hoses and the main hydraulic hose. I think I see more issues with rubbing because I live on the top of the mountain nearly nothing I do is on flat ground. Frame articulation pulls hoses tighter where they pass any slightly rough surface.

I also am too far from a TYM dealer (since my local dealer went out of business) to be able to get prompt service. Before you tear into anything talk to your dealer and be sure they will stand behind the warranty. Next talk to your service tech and get all the advice you can while assuring the job is done the way they would do it as a dealer.

The hose you are describing sounds like the main hydraulic hose assembly. It leaves the pump and then passes by the fire wall and under the steering wheel assembly before emerging on the other side of the tractor and connecting to the loader valve block. Along the way it rubs on the loader assembly, and both sides of the fire wall. I have had similar trouble with the steering cylinder hoses which run under the engine inside the edge of the frame. Both have burst.

If you end up replacing it yourself save some time and headache and remove the steering wheel before proceeding with the rest of the steering wheel assembly cover. The instrument panel has some fragile tabs which can easily break if the steering wheel is in the way. Once the cover is removed you should have good visual access to all that is needed for this repair.

While you are open to all of the hydraulic hoses for both main hydraulics and steering invest a little money in protecting the delicate hose walls. Our local commercial hydraulics dealer has kevlar spiral protector that the hoses can be wrapped in to protect wear areas. It is a little bit of money that will save hours of hassle and down time. I ran it on every hydraulic hose I could get at, paying particular attention to anything passing tightly across the firewall, brackets or making a hard turn. The same commercial hydraulics dealer was able to make replacement hoses in just a few minutes at around $50-$90 a piece depending on length and specialty ends. I then took the burst hose to my dealer for replacement under warranty (spare parts since I already bit the bullet to get it up and running).

If you proceed on your own, be sure your dealer is involved and willing to back you up with the warrant that sold you on your machine. Since protecting my hoses I have had no further hose issues. FYI if you are sidehilling and working uneven ground like myself also keep an eye on the frame bolts connecting the frame to the HST, they tend to loosen with frame articulation.

Good Luck,
snshall

 

[Gregster613]

Update to Hydraulic hose troubles..with a Lot of pictures. I got my baby back last week and all is well once again. And "Oh Yeah", it cost A-lot of $ but that's just the way it goes at times I guess. In addition to my burst hose, I had my Top-N-Tilt system w/3 spool valve installed also. I just wasn't comfortable enough to tear my working hydraulic system apart. Nor do I have all the correct tools or time to run around trying to find the exact fittings I'd need to put it all back together. However, now that I see where & how it's correctly dissambled/assembled and I think on the Vast sums of $ it seems to cost for labor....(& fittings says my installer) any future hose replacements/additions will be peerformed by myself! At my initial tractor purchase I'd bought the rams, Q-disconnects, & ordered the bracket kit to hold it all in place...which is why I was so,so,so very surprised by the cost of install! Anyway, my initial problem was a hose bursting and that's what I consider to be just a part of owning/operating a machine. I'm extremely proud of and greatly enjoy using my new hydraulics. as you can see by the many pics I've attached. I have several more adjustments to make within my "learning to properly use" curve, but I'm getting there. Thanks to all for the advice, tips, and the Service Manual. All were a great help!
I'm too long winded so here is a snap-shot of the pics. Feed line hooks into side of loader block. I thought/know I took that picture but it wasn't on my camera.

Hyd1...Overal view
Hyd2...Return line to tank location
Hyd3...Hose protection I added
Hyd4...Close up of back side QD & mounting brackets
Hyd5...Backside view of QD and Expensive Fittings!!
Hyd6...General side view of Beast Baby's new look
Hyd7...Another close up of those Expensive fittings
Hyd8...Different angle, valves above throtle handle
Hyd9...Side view of very expensive jewlery
Hyd10..View of power steering hoses (which mechanic said were fine) were NOT fine..had initial wear groves that I added bicycle tire pieces to protect for awhile longer. Thanks to snshall tips, I looked very closely at them!
Hyd11..Hyd lift arm installed..old adjustable arm added to left side by me
Hyd12..Hyd top arm view

Happy Tractor'n to all........Gregster613

 

[myyaz33]

are there supposed to be pictures attached?

 

[Gregster613]

My bad, I thought they were in the message. Sorry. I'll try again.

 

[myyaz33]

Very nice install job. Thank you for the pictures. It is always nice to see how the pros do it!

 

[EFC]

At my initial tractor purchase I'd bought the rams, Q-disconnects, & ordered the bracket kit to hold it all in place...which is why I was so,so,so very surprised by the cost of install!

Ok i have to know... How much did it cost to add the valve?

Buck

 

[Gregster613]

OK EFC - you asked (and I did express my dislike of the high cost) for what I thought should have been a simple enough job. Here's the end result, $900 total -- to pick-up/return tractor, replace (1) burst 3/8" hydraulic pump hose, and install the 3 remotes w/valve.
Keep in mind that I had already purchased the valve, mounting kit, QD's, Hydraulic rams, etc., etc. Any additional items for cost would have been several elbow fittings and the actual 1/4" hoses. Oh yeah, the massive labor! So yeah, that's why I think it was too costly. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
My tractor dealer said it took his mech alot of time to disassemble and reassemble everything?? Maybe so, but I know that if I'd have had a steering wheel puller I'd have been able to remove that burst hose within 40 minutes. And that's seeing/learning as I go. It would have been cheaper for me to go buy the tools I lacked & have done the job myself & in the future I'll do just that.
I do admit, I've never priced out hydraulic hoses or fittings before so maybe they are indeed extremely high cost items. At any rate it's done, I'm happy with my new system, and I learned some things not to do in the future.
Gregster613

 

[EFC]

How far was the shipping each way? Not trying to be a jerk I am just curious. Did the dealer separate each job on the service invoice?

And you can call me Buck

Buck

 

[myyaz33]

Gulp!

 

[Gregster613]

Hi guys,
Buck, (Thank-you for the invite) the distance between my "tractor/implement seller" and myself is 50 miles one way. Equals out to approx 200 miles to come get it, take to his shop and then return it to me and go back home. $ for diesel at the time was approx 3.98 p/gal = approx $50.00 for fuel; & time @ wheel = approx 1 hour each way. I figured $10.00 p/hour to just sit & drive was fair. Total = out to $40.00 just for driving, which = out to $90.00 for that service. I offered & gave him $120.00 for doing it. I wanted to be honest & fair, since he wouldn't quote me a rate.
Invoice, period??? Seperate invoice for the (2) seperate jobs??? Detailed, itemized invoice??? I know I should have been given - or even offered - something along those lines, but I wasn't. I was given a hand writen invoice that said parts and labor.
We had a verbal agreement that the valve install should be around $300.00 and certainly not over $500.00 --thus-- you should understand my jaw-dropping expression when tractor is returned and I'm told the total was $900.00! I questioned everything and was just told "that's what it cost."
To be honest I haven't paid it all yet. I gave him $600.00 and told him he has to wait for any balance because I just don't have it.
To be even further honest, I feel that $600.00 should cover it in full but that's what I'm talking about here; trying to gather an opinion if that is a fair price - or not - since I don't know the individual costs for 1/4" elbows [it took 6] and such. The pictures show what was installed, all are 1/4" lines except for the 3/8" feed from my loader block to valve and the return back to the sump. None of those fittings are gold, silver, or bronze and I'm just baffled by this cost. Am I being flim-flamed???
I have no binding contract to hold me to paying the balance, but I'm an honest man -- if it truly does cost this much for those fittings, then I'll continue to find a way to pay it off. Up until this event I had (what I thought) was a good connection between us. I bought my tractor and all of my implements from him and we got along just fine. Good prices on everything and I know he made $ on every deal but I was content with what my costs were too. Then bam, things got real expensive suddenly. So, I just don't know. I want to be fair, but neither do I wish to be an easy mark.

MYYAZ33 - "Gulp" is exactly what I did when confronted with the final tally for this service work!! So that's the whole story guys. My thoughts are I need to find a new repair place if'n I ever need any further work done to my "lil red beast". And that's a shame because I'm normally a very loyal type of customer. Any further opinions or advice? Believe me, I'm all ears!!!
Thanks for listening --- Greg

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Greg, not to be a hard nose here, but would you drive for half of a day for $40? What is your dealers hourly rate? That is probably what he charged you for pick up and delivery. It's to bad that he wouldn't give you an itemized bill. When you guys agreed to get this done, was there some sort of cost agreement?

Hope that everything works out for both of you.

 

[Gregster613]

Hi Brian,
It's only about an hour each way, so not really 1/2 day per trip, but I can see where it might seem as if I'm being on the cheaper side. Again, I wasn't given a quote for costs to pick up and deliver. Was just told "Whatever you think is reasonable". Well, I thought that was reasonable -- I'd drive an hour or two for $10 p/hour and fuel. Driving is not necessarily a specialized task; doesn't require any specific skills that are expensive to acquire.

Yes, we had a verbal understanding of the cost range this install should fall under. I was told "Should be around $300 and certainly not more than $500 since you've already bought all the large hard parts." At the time of this quote we were talking about the valve install only -- the only adjustment to this agreement was that then my main feed hose {3/8" from pump to loader block - perhaps 24" in length} also needed to be changed. So......

If the valve install costed $300 then it cost me $600 to get that (1) hose replaced! WoW!! If valve install costed $500 then it only cost me $400 to get that (1) hose replaced. WoW!!

My main original question to experienced hydraulic people was -- Just how expensive are elbow couplers and hoses?? It appears to me that they are worth much more than gold on todays market! I was told the mechanics labor was $65 p/hr. As I said, I could have removed that burst feeder hose within 40 minutes if I'd had a steering wheel puller. I can only guess at the amount of time it took his mechanic to do the entire job [I don't have any invoices at all] but 6 hours = $390. It probably took alot less time than that in reality. $300 + $400 = $700. $500 + $400 = $900. This seems like it's really riding on the high side no matter how you slice it up.

I appreciate your comments/thoughts/experience but no matter how I hash it out, it still comes out smelling like a bad deal to me. Which is why I'll do all my own repairs from now on - within my abilities - or I'll be finding a new tractor repair shop.
Although it won't be a TYM shop as none are anywhere near me.
Thanks for listenin'.....Greg

 

[MtnViewRanch]

If I were you, I would be figuring 4 hours for pick up and delivery. One hour each way to pick the tractor up equals 2 hours, and the same to return it, so your looking at 4 hours total. You may be willing to drive for $10 an hour, not to many others are. Maybe check with a towing company to see what they would have charged.

I keep bringing up the transportation, because I'm thinking that that is where your cost difference is, not with the actual work at the shop.

Good luck

 

[Gregster613]

Hi Brian,
You're probably right about $10 - $15 p/hr being to little. I'd do it but I enjoy driving and my time is mine. I shouldn't have allowed myself to get into this fix; guess I shoulda been more forceful with my repair person and demanded a paper quote at start.
But, I wanted my tractor fixed asap and the tnt installed while it was in the shop. I'm dissappointed that he wasn't more professional but that's the way the ball bounces. I'm very satisfied with my new system and just thrilled to have my tractor back home.
I wish now that I'd never even mentioned the high cost in the first place. I was just shocked at the price tag! I'm just gonna pay the balance and be done with it. Lesson learned in my book per repair transactions.
As I said, if I ever need any more work done that I just can't do -- I'll use my local Montana dealer. He's only about 3 miles away and if'n I'm not doing warranty work a mechanic is a mechanic I guess.
Thanks.........Greg