Do we expect too much out of our trucks?

   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #11  
Believe me, I LOVE the classics, cars and trucks. There is just no way the older stuff can compare to the new stuff. Technology has made them more complicated, but also much better. Frames are stiffer, engines make more power, engines are more drivable, transmissions have more gears, they haul and tow a heavier load etc.

On the other hand, the towing wars and weight carrying wars are getting way out of hand. Pretty soon a half ton will be rated to haul 20,000lbs in the bed, have a 12 speed transmission and a huge Cummings diesel engine. Oh wait, they already make those, there called semi's.
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #12  
I The trucks today and cars also get much better mpg overall and that is with all the epa stuff. Chris

I have to disagree with this, atleast some :ashamed:. I can compare a 64 straight 6 to a 2000{something} straight 6 that I owned. The older one got atleast 7-10 more MPG then the newer and ran stronger. I have a 99 diesel now that gets atleast 10-12 more MPG then it's new brother, reason I'm not in a hurry to trade in. Pretty much every older vehicle that I owned comparable with same type today did better on gas milage. Maybe the key was to keeping them tuned up???? I'm not against cleaner air nor technology, but sometimes I feel it is just bureaucratic BS smoke being blown into the consumers face :confused2:.
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #13  
I have to disagree with this, atleast some :ashamed:. I can compare a 64 straight 6 to a 2000{something} straight 6 that I owned. The older one got atleast 7-10 more MPG then the newer and ran stronger. I have a 99 diesel now that gets atleast 10-12 more MPG then it's new brother, reason I'm not in a hurry to trade in. Pretty much every older vehicle that I owned comparable with same type today did better on gas milage. Maybe the key was to keeping them tuned up???? I'm not against cleaner air nor technology, but sometimes I feel it is just bureaucratic BS smoke being blown into the consumers face :confused2:.

I agree. Makes no sense to clean up the air when you use twice the fuel.:confused2:

I was not really clear on what I was saying. The way I wanted it to come out is lets say you have a V8 with 1970's tech versus today's tech on the same V8 the new one would get better mpg. Now what you are saying is its a wash at best because of all the clean air crap. If we could take all that off the current trucks would smoke the 70' stuff in economy.

Another issue is weight. We all think of the old metal trucks as heavy. This is not entirely true. Today's new trucks even with the plastic are on average heavier. The chassis, drive components, and all those options like AC, power seats, CD players, ect add weight. Plastic was only used to keep the weight in check and for safety reasons in crash protection.

Chris
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #14  
I agree with Chris on the weight issue. Todays trucks are pretty heavy. I had a 90 Chevy regular cab with a 350v8 that weighed about 4000lbs and could get 20mpg on the highway. I then got a 94 Dodge Ram regular cab long bed with a 318v8 that got about 17mpg but weighed 4600lbs. I then got a 98 Ram Quad Cab 4wd with a 318v8. This truck probably weighed 5200lbs and got about 15mpg. My current truck is a 2007 Ram 4wd quad cab with the 5.7 hemi, and it gets about 15mpg also and probably weighs about 5600lbs.

My point is, each truck got heavier, sure it will haul more and tow more but at a MPG penalty. Because people expect a lot, they have to get heavier to handle the extra load and towing and have become pretty porky.
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #15  
I've noticed a lot of debate recently regarding both new and old tow rigs...gas vs. diesel, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 ton, manual vs. automatic, etc. And then, of course, there is which brand is best. I just wonder if we have become pampered by the later model truck's tow ratings and HP and torque numbers. I personally have an F350 LWB SRW Crew with V10 gas, automatic, 4.30 limited slip, trailer tow package with integrated brake controller, etc. I saw that someone had recently referred to such a combo as a "Dog" when towing. It got me thinking back to when I was a kid...my Father hauled us all around the country over a period of years with a 2wd F150 LWB with a small block and 4 speed. No trailer or camper package, no heavy duty cooling, no ABS. He installed a set of air shocks and that was it. I'm pretty sure my F350 has more torque in the wiper motor than that truck of his had. He hauled a 10 1/2' slide in camper and towed a HEAVY old AMF Crestliner 19' boat with NO trailer brakes. I never recall any issues as far as breakdowns or overheating, and never heard him complain about how hard it was to control. As a matter of fact, I remember him as always being happy behind the wheel, humming, whistling and so forth. For a number of years I towed a 20' Wellcraft Eclipse with a 1990 F150 4X4 SWB with a 300 six and a 5 speed manual and a 3.73 rear end. Never had any problem with it either...towed quite competently, actually. Anyway, just thinking we've gotten to a point where as a society we expect a lot more for our money (nothing wrong with that), but how much is too much. You can no longer select individual options in order to keep the cost of a utilitarian truck down...everything is "option packages"...you want a 3.73 limited slip, well you may have to purchase it in a package with power windows, heated and cooled seats, power moon roof, dual climate control and Kryptonite encrusted mud flaps. You get the idea. What do you guys and gals think?

Agreed--this TBN forum has a wealth of info on trucks and towing, but for a newby like me, it's a job to sort out the facts from the opinion when making buying decisions.

For example, I need to tow my parade tractors (one at a time), which weigh up to 4500 lb. The towing will amount to less than 4000 miles per year. After looking at 1T diesels and 20ft GN trailers, I'm pretty much going with a 3/4T gasser and an 18ft bumper pull car hauler. Lately I've been interested in the F250 with the 3-valve/cyl, 8 cyl 5.4L Triton gasser. I know many folks think the 5.4L is a puny engine for serious towing. So I tried to educate myself on that score.

I found the torque power curves for the stock 3V 5.4L

Ford 5.4L TP curves (Medium).jpg

and for the much prized 1998.5 24V Cummins 5.9L turbo diesel (stock). Cummins, of course, is by far the preferred diesel engine for 3/4 and 1T PUs and the 24V enjoys an impressive reputation.

Cummins 24V TP curves (Small).jpg

Diesels are touted for their low end torque (the grunt in towing), so I looked that these two engines at 2000 rpm. Interestingly, the hp and torque numbers are nearly the same

130 hp and 350 lb-ft for the Ford 5.4L
and
130 hp and 360 lb-ft for the Cummins 5.9L

Remember, that the Triton is a normally-aspirated, fuel injected engine while the Cummins uses a turbo to get its numbers.

Sure, the Cummins gets better fuel mileage and you can tune that engine to nearly double the hp and torque. And the resale value is better for the diesel, yadda, yadda, yadda.

But I'm only interested in doing a pretty simple towing job and can't justify the extra $5-6K for the Cummins and I'm not interested in performance enhancements. Stock engines will do my job fine.

Moral of this story: you need to do some legwork to get to the bottom of things.
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #16  
Moral of this story: you need to do some legwork to get to the bottom of things.

You need to do more legwork. First, the graph you posted for the Ford V8 is an engine HP graph which means it shows the power output AT THE CRANK and not AT THE WHEELS. The graph for the diesel measured power AT THE WHEELS. You typically lose about 20-25% through the drivetrain so that Ford V8 would be lucky to put down 300lb.ft to the wheels let alone the 380lb.ft that the diesel is putting TO THE WHEELS. Keep in mind the power rated at the crank of the diesel would be much higher and diesel transmissions usually eat up about 25-30% of the engine power due to heavier internals.

Secondly, there is a huge difference in power loss between gas and diesel when you put a load on the engine. In Layman's terms, the gas engine makes an quick explosion that "slaps" the piston down where-as the diesel makes a slow burning explosion that forces the piston down the entire stroke. So when you put a load on the gas engine, it loses power just as quickly as rpms. The diesel however works just as hard under load losing very little power compared.

Thirdly, a diesel for towing 4500lbs a few thousand miles a year is not the best option. Diesels do not sit very well and need to be run more often then gas engines plus the maintenance and higher initial cost vs low yearly mileage would never make it worth it. You can tow 4500lbs with a mid-sized truck these days let alone a full-size with a V8. A Ford Ranger 2wd long box V6 can tow 5940lbs and a Dodge Dakota can tow up to 7200lbs.
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #17  
I agree,people have forgotten about packing bearings,brake shoes,etc.We just jump in and go!I know people who have never even checked thier oil,they just seem to think its good till the next change and it ussually is
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #18  
you also have to remember who is buying these trucks now-a-days. everybody, or so it seems, has to have a powerstroke to tow their camper or boat; that used to be towed by a large sedan. a neighbor of mine recently went out an bought a newer f350 powerstroker to tow his small boat (single axle trailer), because he didnt think his wife's expedition would be up to the challenge. pickups used to be used for work and utility needs. i see an awful of diesel trucks with hard tonneu (sp?) covers, no tow hitch, etc. why have it- it doesnt seem economical to me. it seems like every kid who comes to the college near where i live drives a $40k diesel truck, that sits in the parking lot 5 days/week till they drive it back home the next weekend. todays truck buyer is much different than the truck buyer of 20 years ago. now we have trucks with heated seats, electrical this and that, power seats, and even manufacturers no longer offering manual transmissions (GM/chevy). seems kinda silly to me. i can still climb into the engine bay of my dodges and sit next to the inline 6 cummins under the hood. my '08 toyota tacoma is still "fairly" simple-no power anything, manual trans, etc. i wouldnt dare get into the electronics in the engine, but at least i can still make out an engine under the hood. it will be the newest vehicle i won for quite some time.
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #19  
Dmace is right on the money here. Yes, I agreed with you...:thumbsup:

The 5.4 is a ok engine but has no place in 3/4 and up trucks. Get the V-10 or a GM 8.1 and never look back.

There is so much more that plays in to this like trannys, rear ends, and even tire size.

I know you are trying to find the perfect truck Flusher but you just need to get out and drive them then pull the trigger and buy one. You will know soon enough if you made the right choice or not. We have all been there. I have bought trucks that were not what I needed and just had to swallow my pride and get something else. Its a learning curve. Much like owning tractors owning many trucks will soon show you what is good and bad.

Chris
 
   / Do we expect too much out of our trucks? #20  
Well, I don't want to start a (my truck is better than your truck) war, but for towing less than 10,000 lbs. I don't think there's a better choice than a Tundra, 5.7L, with the tow package(4:30 gearing). I get, what I consider, very good fuel mileage(18 highway, empty/12.5 towing a 5500lb pulling tractor on a 3,000lb equipment trailer. No, I've never experienced the "unexpected vehicle acceleration", nor do I expect to. I traded a 3 valve, 5.4 Crewcab with 3:73 gearing(after 18 months) that I had purchased new, because it was not much fun to tow with, and got 9 MPG towing the same 8500lb load. For a 1/2 ton truck, it tows and stops, my load, extremely well
 

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