Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county?

   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county? #41  
What hidden costs? More like ignored costs IMO. :laughing:
The Dirty Truth Behind Clean Natural Gas - National Wildlife Federation

People need to care just a little. Sure, a tax is a tax. In lieu of a populace that wants to ignore the rest of the costs, it's easy to finger point taxes as the only evil.
Dave.

The link is a red herring. We are talking about a tax that somehow will save us from Global Warming and reduce oil dependence. This tax will ripple through the economy and cost us all money. It is almost as bad as VAT.

It is wrong to give a tax break to Exxon for oil exploration or to KFC to sell chicken in China. If they are not paying their tax then some one else will. A cap and trade is that same thing but worse since the tax will effect everything that uses energy.

Cap and trade is not going to stop pollution from energy exploration. Cap and trade is not going to promote green fuels. It is just moving the tax from one entity to another under the guise of making people feel good.

I can put a solar water heater on my roof and save money. Just barely does it make money sense. And it only makes money sense because of the tax incentive. Taking away the incentive and it makes no money sense to put in the system. The wind farmers are having the same problem. The Ethanol plants are having the same problem as their tax benefits go away.

I have a couple of shelves full of books about alternate energy. Those books are a couple of decades old. I am still waiting for what they propose to come true.

Maybe if I wish upon a star....

Pollution caused by oil exploration is a problem of regulation. Not a problem of taxation. By the way I know of one county in FLA that pumps treated waste water back into the ground. I don't see how that can be good but it has been going on for decades now.

Later,
Dan
 
   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county? #42  
Interesting website, tks for posting! I see a big movement towards Seattle, I sure do love it out there.

I just finished a move from Detroit (30 miles NW) to North Central Ohio (South of Canton) not because of jobs or economy, but where the wife's family is, and we got a great deal on a house, and own some land closeby to build the retirement home.
I know the city proper is dying from within, I used to fly over it all the time as I was stationed there for 8 yrs in the Coast Guard. I remember years back when their official population fell below 1 million and they lost federal funding because of it. Add to that the corrupt politicians already mentioned with the collapse of the auto industry simply did the city/area in.
The 1 positive aspect I see is all the abandoned warehouses are being scooped up by new companies, MI is really offering some incentives for new business, and they can get these huge structures for CHEEP, so it's helping a bit....there's even some movie companies buying them and setting up stage/films/scenes due to the low cost.
Timeframe for recovery? Now that's the million dollar question....

As a sidenote, I rented my 3000' ft colonial for a decent rent in 1 day....
mybe I just got lucky, but had many calls on it. I never even considered selling, I would've got slaughtered....
 
   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county? #43  
The link is a red herring. We are talking about a tax that somehow will save us from Global Warming and reduce oil dependence. This tax will ripple through the economy and cost us all money. It is almost as bad as VAT.

It is wrong to give a tax break to Exxon for oil exploration or to KFC to sell chicken in China. If they are not paying their tax then some one else will. A cap and trade is that same thing but worse since the tax will effect everything that uses energy.

Cap and trade is not going to stop pollution from energy exploration. Cap and trade is not going to promote green fuels. It is just moving the tax from one entity to another under the guise of making people feel good.

I can put a solar water heater on my roof and save money. Just barely does it make money sense. And it only makes money sense because of the tax incentive. Taking away the incentive and it makes no money sense to put in the system. The wind farmers are having the same problem. The Ethanol plants are having the same problem as their tax benefits go away.

I have a couple of shelves full of books about alternate energy. Those books are a couple of decades old. I am still waiting for what they propose to come true.

Maybe if I wish upon a star....

Pollution caused by oil exploration is a problem of regulation. Not a problem of taxation. By the way I know of one county in FLA that pumps treated waste water back into the ground. I don't see how that can be good but it has been going on for decades now.

Later,
Dan

Dan,
I never said cap and trade is the only solution, not sure it is the solution I would choose either. It is one way of using free market forces to push energy use in the correct direction.

I posted the link because it shows in real photos, the result/by products of natural gas extraction. It discusses the downside of fracturing chemicals also. If we are discussing something, at least we should see the actuality of what is being discussed.

No where in your post do you put any value on the damage done by extraction, although you do have many opinions about taxes. We have proven over and over again, extraction regulation is a poor mechanism at best. It is highly subject to politcal manipulation, back room deals and revolving regulators/energy company employees.

Supposedly the environment is being protected while mountain tops disappear, and western prairies, plateaus, inland water sources and now marine resources are decimated. It doesn't add up. You need to see that reality. If you can witness all that and keep a straight face while saying we are taking care of the earth, we have no common ground on the issue.

The willful blindness to some energy extraction issues is astounding. For example, the dispersant formula used by BP in the Gulf is a 'trade secret'. Also the fracturing chemicals used in the gas wells is a 'trade secret'. How can it be that unknown chemicals are pumped into Federal waters and into BLM Federal lands, yet the public isn't allowed to know what the formalae are? I thought that was our land (you and me). It's absolutely nuts. Aside from war plans, sunshine has always been a powerful force.

I return to my statement, it's easy to point a finger at a tax as the only evil on the playing field, it just isn't realistic. The cost of environmental damage and contribution to global warming is given no value in your statements. How about a balanced approach?
Dave.
 
   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county? #44  
The link is a red herring. We are talking about a tax that somehow will save us from Global Warming and reduce oil dependence. This tax will ripple through the economy and cost us all money. It is almost as bad as VAT.

It is wrong to give a tax break to Exxon for oil exploration or to KFC to sell chicken in China. If they are not paying their tax then some one else will. A cap and trade is that same thing but worse since the tax will effect everything that uses energy.

Cap and trade is not going to stop pollution from energy exploration. Cap and trade is not going to promote green fuels. It is just moving the tax from one entity to another under the guise of making people feel good.

I can put a solar water heater on my roof and save money. Just barely does it make money sense. And it only makes money sense because of the tax incentive. Taking away the incentive and it makes no money sense to put in the system. The wind farmers are having the same problem. The Ethanol plants are having the same problem as their tax benefits go away.

I have a couple of shelves full of books about alternate energy. Those books are a couple of decades old. I am still waiting for what they propose to come true.

Maybe if I wish upon a star....

Pollution caused by oil exploration is a problem of regulation. Not a problem of taxation. By the way I know of one county in FLA that pumps treated waste water back into the ground. I don't see how that can be good but it has been going on for decades now.

Later,
Dan


Dan,

Energy companies have capital investment plans that span three to four decades and more. For that reason almost all of them support government involvement in setting energy policy now.

And I'm not even sure that there're any costs initially to energy suppliers under the cap and trade proposals that were being discussed last year.

As it's implemented and as alternatives are employed, higher costs will be passed down to the consumer no doubt. But those costs will largely be borne by those consuming the most energy. And in response more effecient products will emerge. I read yesterday that lighting consumes 20% of our electricity in the US and that incandecent light bulbs are < 10% efficient. The incandecent bulb is history under cap and trade. Smart metering, more efficient appliances, better insulation will all be part of the consumer's response.

So cap and trade will most definately promote alternatives to fossil fuels as well as promote energy conservation.
 
   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county?
  • Thread Starter
#45  
Interesting website, tks for posting! I see a big movement towards Seattle, I sure do love it out there.

I just finished a move from Detroit (30 miles NW) to North Central Ohio (South of Canton) not because of jobs or economy, but where the wife's family is, and we got a great deal on a house, and own some land closeby to build the retirement home.
I know the city proper is dying from within, I used to fly over it all the time as I was stationed there for 8 yrs in the Coast Guard. ...

<snip>

Scoutcub,

Were you career Coast Guard? I was in for four years (1965-1969) -- Cape Hatteras, Newport RI (Navy Quartermaster and Signalman schools), CG Cutter Madrona (180' buoy tender out of Portsmouth Va) and COP for Baltimore (Curtis Bay). I finished up as an E-6 -- Quartermaster First Class. The GI Bill sure came in handy in helping to pay for my BS and part of grad school.

Steve
 
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   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county? #46  
Maybe not destroy, how about make unihabitable? I visited LA in the 70's & 80's. They had smog days there that literally took your breath away. You could see the haze on the expressway. People with breathing problems were advised to stay inside, or leave the area. That's why California has been the leader in pollution legislation. They were choking on smog. Maybe in your area of this country of 300+ million the air is unsullied, but many of our citizens are not so fortunate.

I've always thought there should be 2 if not 3 California's... The Difference between LA and say Humboldt is like night and day... so much of the legislation is to address problems in major metro areas whereas the rural parts don't have the problem to begin with... Kind of like Seattle and King County WA makes the rules for the rest of that State.
 
   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county? #47  
Scoutcub,

Were you career Coast Guard? I was in for four years (1965-1969) -- Cape Hatteras, Newport RI (Navy Quartermaster and Signalman schools), CG Cutter Madrona (187' buoy tender out of Portsmouth Va) and COP for Baltimore (Curtis Bay). I finished up as an E-6 -- Quartermaster First Class. The GI Bill sure came in handy in helping to pay for my BS and part of grad school.

Steve

didn't think you could get to E6 in four years.
 
   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county?
  • Thread Starter
#48  
didn't think you could get to E6 in four years.

You could in the Coast Guard at that time. It may be different now. I don't know their respective weights, but both time in grade and test scores mattered for promotion. I did really well on the tests. I think I made E-6 in just over three years.

Steve
 
   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county? #49  
Scoutcub,

Were you career Coast Guard? I was in for four years (1965-1969) -- Cape Hatteras, Newport RI (Navy Quartermaster and Signalman schools), CG Cutter Madrona (180' buoy tender out of Portsmouth Va) and COP for Baltimore (Curtis Bay). I finished up as an E-6 -- Quartermaster First Class. The GI Bill sure came in handy in helping to pay for my BS and part of grad school.

Steve

Steve -
Well, I was career military.....started in the USMC in 79, went to flight school in the Army in 85, and switched to the Coast Guard in 90, retired in 2006. Saw plenty of ships in the Marines and CG.....but sure glad I did it now!
And, you did better than me, I made E-5 in the Marines in 3 years, I thought that was pretty good!
 
   / Where Americans are Moving --what's happening in your county?
  • Thread Starter
#50  
Steve -
Well, I was career military.....started in the USMC in 79, went to flight school in the Army in 85, and switched to the Coast Guard in 90, retired in 2006. Saw plenty of ships in the Marines and CG.....but sure glad I did it now!
And, you did better than me, I made E-5 in the Marines in 3 years, I thought that was pretty good!

Thanks for your service to our country!!!

Steve
 

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