Talk to your kids about their future jobs

[Mark @ Everlast]

I really think that state systems really need to integrate their collegiate programs so that the education can lead to trade and liberal arts degrees or science degrees, without an emphasis on majors at the outset. They should be integrated under one campus, and given an opportunity to decide the curriculum that best suits their abilities, talents, and interests.
In the traditional system, its often the trade schools that get the less "educated" instructors, but with more experience. The universities are just as apt to have higher educated teachers with less experience. So, a blending of the systems might give a synergistic result for our educational system in the US and see a boost in enrollment and a return to skilled AND educated workers that can rebuild our economy with an intelligent, yet practical approach.

 

[Stampeder]

I started this dialog to stimulate discussion about changing attitudes towards the trades. Great changes usually start from small beginnings and the more people discuss them the more they grow and eventually governments get dragged kicking and screaming along.

I have been in the "high tech" business for the last 30 plus years. I spent 9 years working for Hewlett Packard after graduating from the post secondary college I attended. I have continued to work in this field in many capacities. The one thing I have learned in this "high tech" business is to keep reinventing one's self. I am now on my fourth or fifth career, having done repair work, computer programming, broadcast engineering (both radio and television), worked for the Telephone company and most recently for the Cable TV industry. I have made a good living at this, certainly not got rich but have enjoyed the work. It has also allowed me to enjoy my hobbies along the way as well. I have travelled throughout the lower 48 and Hawaii as part of my jobs. I think I have about 5 states left that I have not visited in teh lower 48.

I have friends that went to University (one went to Havard Business school) and then went into the trades. The Havard Business school fellow went on to be a plumber and opened his own plumbing business. He was very successful and really enjoyed his work as he got to do both work with his hands and utilize his degree in a practical sense.

Sometimes it's not a matter of either or but really the message needs to be that both are valuable and neither one or the other is better, just different. Most of the millionaires I know didn't get there going to University. Read the book "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". It's really a good life lesson.

:thumbsup:

 

[wroughtn_harv]

I stopped by the local highschool welding class Friday. Some of the kids know me from town but for most of them I'm the old guy that does a class on occasion in the evening.

One of the things that I hammer the kids on is that employers for the most part, at least the ones worth working for, are looking for people that can think. They can get machines to chase a puddle better than an employee can. What they want and treasure is an employee that can think which is something they can't get a machine to do.

There's lots of kids out there would like trades work and be very good at it. It's just that our society doesn't encourage it. They don't want their little darlings getting dirty or having to sweat etc. That's a shame but it is what it is.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

One other problem is that the kids aren't exposed to different types of work. The parents are so busy making a living that they don't do any type of different projects at home that the kids can help with.My family never had a lot of money so you fixed every thing you could instead of buying a new one. My dad was a carpenter and was always remodeling something for some one. I always got to help whether I wanted to or not. When the lawn mower or the car broke he fixed it. At an early age helping dad fix the car I decided this was something I enjoyed. I have stuck with it and for the last 35 yrs have made a good living.
Bill

 

[whistlepig]

The trades are all but gone now. America has lost interest in it's manufacturing.

 

[AlanB]

Just read this thread and it was something we were just discussing and a pet peeve of mine with the school system.

I believe that one of the reasons that the school system is so geared to the academic college route, is that is where all the folks running the school system went through. (I know there are exceptions, but they are few and far between) Because that is how they progressed they often feel that is the "right" way to go, often the "only" way.

I see our hands on stuff in this area going down, and down and harder to access and it is crazy to me.

If you look on Youtube, Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs has a great piece on there about Work in America and how somehow we have started thinking of work as something below us. I really liked the way he put it and spoke about it and the dignity of just plain work.

As to the German Schools, there are ups and downs to their systems, but there is a lot I really like, although they make the decision a little too early in my opinion.

Short version, there are 3 tracks that your parents choose after 4th grade, and prior to 5th. You can go to the workers type school (hauptshule) which is where you go if you are going into a trade, then after 9th grade you apprentice in your trade and continue in school. You can go to the Office type school, where you learn a trade that is usually an office type job, sales, etc. or you can go to the University track (gymnasium) which is preparing you to go on to college.

You end up with very knowledgeable and educated folks in their fields.

Unfortunately if you decide later that you really wished you had went another way, you usually have to back up quite a bit and do the entire program for the other track. Good bad, indifferent,,, It makes people tend to stick to their path. And you pretty much do not do a job, without the paperwork that says you can do it.

I think we should adopt a little more of their approach, just let the decision come a bit later when the child has some more direction in where they are going, I would think about 9th grade would be appropriate.

 

[whistlepig]

The trades are not taught anymore. There is no talk of journeyman or apprenticeships in school. No machinists, steel workers, welders, woodworkers, assemblers, builders, etc. No classes to teach the skill with the hands, mind, and body. And I hope the college grads get the finest education they can. So they can all think about something that is no longer there to think about.

 

[Cat_Driver]

More than anything what I see is kids today have the wrong attitude about work and work ethics.

This isn't new I started seeing it back in the 80's when people would beg me for a job and convince me how great they were and how dedicated they would be blah, blah, blah., then proceed to ask for more days off than they would work.

Most can't even get to work on time and could care less if they do or don't show up. Theft ya that's another thing todays kids are all good at. Not respecting my equipment is another.

No trade school or college can teach respect. Some of the problem until lately is kids would jump from job to job like changing pants and there would always be another on waiting for them.

Many, many time I would run across a prospective employee that I could train and move into a stronger position, but sure enough they all would let me down. It was maybe a girl friend, too many hours, work was too hard, they are bored, and on and on.

The other thing is they all wanted to be my partner or make $50.00 per hour yet the could hardly put a sentence together, but they all felt they deserved it. One guy had a long conversation with me to convince me he was worth as much as two men. I took him to the back dock and said pick that 150 lb. crate up he said I can't. I called over two guys and asked them to do it and it was done without a problem. I told him when he's able to pick that crate up I will pay him twice what he's getting now.

My thoughts is that all kids should get out of high school and put in three years of service and be taught respect and what it's like to put in a hard days work, then things will be different.

Here's my last thought. Instead of just GIVING unemployment money to people sit around all day watching Oprah, they should make everyone collecting benefits THAT IS ABLE to be required to put in 8 hours a day in an existing business or farm. Then the farmer will approve his free benefit check and say if the person gets the free money.

Think about that. The government is paying the money anyway why not get some production out of these unemployed workers?

They can stock shelves, clean police cars, sweep the halls of a school, clean up the beaches and parks, remove graffiti, wash cars at the dealership, collect garbage, wash windows, and on and on. Nothing skills, nothing dangerous just SOMETHING!

 

[smfcpacfp]

I am a retired college professor (taught income taxation and personal financial planning courses). Once I started school, I spent all but 5 of the next 56 years in education either getting an education (BA, MBA, JD, PhD) or teaching at the college level. I was a tax attorney for a big CPA firm for 5 years during my career. The last two years I have been taking welding classes at the local college. Here is a bit of information gleaned from 2008 census data regarding the value of a college education:

College graduates earn nearly twice as much during their working years as high school graduates. Information from the U.S. Census Bureau 2008 report reinforces the value of a college education: workers 25 and over with a bachelor痴 degree earn an average of $60,954 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $33,618. Workers with a master's degree make an average of $71,236, and those with a doctoral degree earn an average of $99,995, and a professional degree earns an average of $125,622. Looking at it from a different view, over an adult's working life (45 years), high school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.5 million; those with a bachelor's degree, $2.7 million; and people with a master's degree, $3.2 million. Persons with doctoral degrees earn an average of $4.5 million during their working life, while those with professional degrees do best at $5.6 million. College graduation will qualify you for many jobs that would not be available to you any other way. Your career advancement should be easier because some job promotions require a college degree.

However I agree with most everything you guys said. Of course the above statistics don't consider the fact that specific vocational training for high school graduates may put you in a position to earn a great deal more than just a high school graduate, such as a certified all position welder. Many people are wasting their time in college due to pressure from their families to go to college, when they would rather be making something with their hands. Before and during college, I used to repair stereo and video equipment for my mother's TV/stereo store - a lost art today.

In my own case I always enjoyed working with my hands as well as thinking about the ramafications and complexities of our tax law. At this stage in life I prefer it. I would rather be known as a good craftsman than a shrewd tax expert, and as everyone pointed out we need more craftsman.

 

[handirifle]

I agree with a lot of whats being said, but not all of it. I am not a teacher or in the trades, but I used to be. After leaving the Army in '75 I got various jobs, some decent ones. My wife convinced me to go back to school, and I did. Previously, all I had was a GED, so I went to the local Community College and began courses for Heating, Air Conditioning and Refrigeration. I worked as a janitor at our church, part time, and the money I got from the GI bill (plus my wife's job) helped get us through.

I completed the courses and got an Associates degree in the same. I worked in that trade for the next 5 years, as a repair specialist, never really did installation.

I really enjoyed the work, but was struggling, money wise. My wife is an excellent money manager, she still manages ours, but when we realized we were coming up in the red, something had to be done. We were not in debt credit card wise. We had a mortgage payment of just $700 a month. We had a 68 Chevy pickup and a cab over camper, but could not afford to put gas in the truck, to go anywhere. God and fate stepped in for me, and when over 11,000 Air Traffic Controller jobs opened up, in 1981, I got one of them.

I loved the work, and after 26 1/2 years on the job was forced to retire. We cannot control traffic past the end of the month in which we turn 56 years old. Talk about age discrimination!

My trade job taught me MANY things and I have used that knowledge many times over. Working where I was, I would not have had anywhere near the retirement I have, if any at all.

What's my point? As mentioned, the trades are important, and SOME of them make good money. All trades are valuable, but not all are good paying. One of the requirements for me to get my ATC job, was an associates degree, or two years college. The new hires are now required a specific ATC 2 year degree.

Someone else mentioned briefly, the trades are leaving the USA. Do not give ALL the blame to universities and high schools for not teaching trades. When major companies are sending 80% of manufacturing jobs overseas, it doesn't make a lot of sense to learn a job trade that is being farmed out or just doesn't exist here anymore. It's a sad fact of life.

The current economy might turn some of that around, but if no one has money, they cannot afford to pay for work to be done.

I'd love to see the trades come back home, but with many of the former skilled labor jobs being done by robots, I don't see those jobs coming back. New ones, the programing and repair of these machines are going to be where the work is. Even those will require some sort of formal training.