How do they do it?

[Argosy]

Why is that? It would seem to go against what I have been taught.

There's a lot of wear and stress on everything from the cylinders to the bearings when engines are constantly accelerating and decelerating.

 

[Jay4200]

Just how do these machines endure this and some of them for several thousand hrs ....???

Oh, that's easy. Big displacement and small power. My L4200 has a 2.2L motor that produces 45HP, or ~20HP/L and can be expected to run 4000-5000 hours or more. A 2.2L motor in a BMW Z3 makes 230HP, or 104HP/L and one can expect ~2000-2500 hours out of that. A top fuel dragster produces 8000HP from a 7.3L motor, or ~1100HP/L. That motor lasts 6 seconds.

JayC

 

[Ford tractor]

The carbon in a gas engine is abrasive, adding to engine wear.

Additionally due to compression ratios typically twice as high as gas engines, engine components must be built much stronger. This rigidity of components contributes to less engine wear

All this said, I still agree with the oil change nature of this thread. I am an oil change fanatic. I always pull the drain plug when the engine is completely warmed up and let it drain overnight. Those last few drops are the gunkiest of what comes out. I have achieved very good engine life from my engines which have always had such frequent changes using my extreme method.

.

You are spot on with the relative strength of diesel engines to gas. A small displacement 4 cylinder diesel will weigh as much as a v8 gas engine. All that rigidity has to help.

Don't forget that 98% of engine wear comes from dirty air and not dirty oil. (and most dirt in dirty oil is from the air) Sure, lubricants are important, but not like clean air. If you pull the air filter out and run 2 hours in a dusty environment the engine is shot. But you can run with old oil indefinitely as long as the level is kept up. Compare air filter tech from the 60's and 70's when engines started to smoke at 70k and were shot at 100k with modern filters in cars that go 2,3 and even 400k miles.

(I have suspicions about the accuracy of your statement on carbon being different in a gas engine from a diesel. That's never ever been brought to my attention before. Do you have any details on it? If it really is correct, I'd like to understand it)

The good ol' days are right now.:thumbsup:

Yes, they sure are. Or as a buddy says, "They don't make them like they used to -- Thankfully"

 

[gauthier]

Most don't do it [for that many hours]

 

[blueriver]

Well we got some light rain so I decided to start the process and the first up was the 5530 ... droped the oil and the filter, then my grandson asked what is this filter for? It was the hydraulic filter ... so what the hey we dropped the hyd/trans fluid put the filter on and replaced the hyd/trans filter ... didn't have an air filter so called the dealer and he said he would drop ship that!!

Pulled the 4x4 dually in and dropped the oil and filter, gave it a good service ... jacked up the front to check things out and found (I don't know the truck lingo) ... seems to be a front type of u-joint on the drivers side front wheel that has a click and some play. I guess thats a u-joint??? Time to research that and tear it down.

Next up is the 4340 ... when it comes in from the hay field ... still got 75 bales to load and then full service for that girl ... I really feel good when these things get done!!!! Kinda self pride in taking the time to service your investments.

 

[MBDiagMan]

You are spot on with the relative strength of diesel engines to gas. A small displacement 4 cylinder diesel will weigh as much as a v8 gas engine. All that rigidity has to help.

Don't forget that 98% of engine wear comes from dirty air and not dirty oil. (and most dirt in dirty oil is from the air) Sure, lubricants are important, but not like clean air. If you pull the air filter out and run 2 hours in a dusty environment the engine is shot. But you can run with old oil indefinitely as long as the level is kept up. Compare air filter tech from the 60's and 70's when engines started to smoke at 70k and were shot at 100k with modern filters in cars that go 2,3 and even 400k miles.

(I have suspicions about the accuracy of your statement on carbon being different in a gas engine from a diesel. That's never ever been brought to my attention before. Do you have any details on it? If it really is correct, I'd like to understand it)




Yes, they sure are. Or as a buddy says, "They don't make them like they used to -- Thankfully"

The difference in gas engine and diesel engine byproducts of combustion is quite obvious to the naked eye. Take apart an engine of each category and examine everything. The carbon in a gas engine is solid and dry. The "carbon" which is not really carbon in the diesel combustion process, is an oily goo. It's quite easy to see which one is significantly more abrasive.

As far as modern engines vs the older engine wear goes, the single most important improvement that is the most responsible for today's long engine life is fuel injection. With the old carbureted engines, raw fuel found it's way to the cylinder walls during cold start up. This fuel washed the oil off the cylinder walls. Sure, today we have better lubricants, better engine construction and better machining processes, but FI is the biggest factor. The lack of a choke in a diesel engine along with the fact that diesel fuel is an oil as opposed to a solvent is one of the factors that has always led to longer diesel engine life.

Todays automotive gas engines come VERY close to the longevity that automotive diesel engines have enjoyed for decades.

 

[Ford tractor]

The difference in gas engine and diesel engine byproducts of combustion is quite obvious to the naked eye. Take apart an engine of each category and examine everything. The carbon in a gas engine is solid and dry. The "carbon" which is not really carbon in the diesel combustion process, is an oily goo. It's quite easy to see which one is significantly more abrasive.

As far as modern engines vs the older engine wear goes, the single most important improvement that is the most responsible for today's long engine life is fuel injection. With the old carbureted engines, raw fuel found it's way to the cylinder walls during cold start up. This fuel washed the oil off the cylinder walls. Sure, today we have better lubricants, better engine construction and better machining processes, but FI is the biggest factor. The lack of a choke in a diesel engine along with the fact that diesel fuel is an oil as opposed to a solvent is one of the factors that has always led to longer diesel engine life.

Todays automotive gas engines come VERY close to the longevity that automotive diesel engines have enjoyed for decades.

Interesting observations. I have taken apart a lot of gas engines (hundreds) and dozens (maybe more?) diesel engines. Can't say that I've reached the same conclusions as you. Poor condition diesels suffer from a lot of carbon build up. I've only seen the oily residue on ones that have injectors with worn nozzles or low pop off pressure. Other than those, the carbon residue on diesels was typically worse than on gas engines.

Have you much experience looking at engines from the pre-unleaded fuel days? Your observations may not be the same with them. I remember in '78 or so taking apart my first un-leaded fuel engine with 100k miles and being shocked at how spotlessly clean it was. The older leaded fuel used to really gum up and make a mess where the new unleaded keeps everything really nice.

You may be right on choke equipped engines, but they went the way of the dinosaur when the carburetors went extinct. However, the longevity of the last 10 years of so of carburetor fed engines was on par with the FI fed engines of the day. I'd still put faith in improvements to air cleaner tech as one of the more important aspects of engine longevity.

What's the real reason? Dunno. It's probably 100 different little things that all together have made the big improvements over the past 35 years. There have been many changes from air filters, oil quality, fuel, FI, etc etc etc all of them together have sure made cars reliable!

 

[longtrman]

Not all operators are as dedicated as those here. I had one customer call and ask me to get his tractor started. It died and wouldn't hit a lick. When I picked it up it was an old 445 Long with 3750 hours, the original oil filter, fuel filters and the air cleaner hadn't been cleaned since new. I told him it would require a major overhaul after that treatment. He "cried poor". So I tried the bare bones apporach. I changed the fluids and filters, cleaned the fuel tank and lines and cleaned the air cleaner (oil bath type). After bleeding the fuel system, the tractor started and ran like new. The next time I heard of the tractor a new owner had purchased the tractor at 5500 hours. The maintenance hadn't hadn't been performed since I did it at 3750 hours. The new owner used it a couple thousand more hours and lost it in a barn fire.

An Allis-Chalmers 5040 came up from Texas in the back of a closed 24' truck. It smoked so bad the owner couldn't drive it to the back of the truck to unload. I couldn't either so we pulled it out with a winch. The owner took the tractor home and over hauled it then sold it. Within a short time it needed over hauled again. The new owner bought a larger Long that I had and used the 5040 parts that were still good to repair the Long including the air cleaner. When the Long was subjected to dusty conditions it quickly needed overhaul. So the new owner traded the larger Long to me for a new Long. After the warranty was over the owner asked if he could trade the wet oil bath cleaner for the dry air cleaner on the old Long. Within a short time the new tractor needed overhaul. While overhauling the tractor I discovered that the special wing nut that sealed the air filter had been replaced with an ordinary hex nut that did not seal it. That made 2 overhauls on the 5040, 1 on the old Long and one on the new Long attributed to a hex nut that didn't seal the air filter properly.
My question is not how they do it but why they do it?

 

[knightrider955]

Ive got a Long 560. Ive asked several people about swaping out my oil bath air cleaner for a good paper element. Everyone Ive talked to swears that oil bath setup is a good way to go and to leave it on. Now Im thinking maybe its not?

 

[MBDiagMan]

Interesting observations. I have taken apart a lot of gas engines (hundreds) and dozens (maybe more?) diesel engines. Can't say that I've reached the same conclusions as you. Poor condition diesels suffer from a lot of carbon build up. I've only seen the oily residue on ones that have injectors with worn nozzles or low pop off pressure. Other than those, the carbon residue on diesels was typically worse than on gas engines.

Have you much experience looking at engines from the pre-unleaded fuel days? Your observations may not be the same with them. I remember in '78 or so taking apart my first un-leaded fuel engine with 100k miles and being shocked at how spotlessly clean it was. The older leaded fuel used to really gum up and make a mess where the new unleaded keeps everything really nice.

You may be right on choke equipped engines, but they went the way of the dinosaur when the carburetors went extinct. However, the longevity of the last 10 years of so of carburetor fed engines was on par with the FI fed engines of the day. I'd still put faith in improvements to air cleaner tech as one of the more important aspects of engine longevity.

What's the real reason? Dunno. It's probably 100 different little things that all together have made the big improvements over the past 35 years. There have been many changes from air filters, oil quality, fuel, FI, etc etc etc all of them together have sure made cars reliable!

I too have taken apart many more gas engines than diesels. Gas engines make carbon while diesels deal with soot. It may sound like splitting hairs, but there really is a difference. With the proper oil, soot dispersal is very well controlled while gas engine carbon is dry and chalky. Gasoline acts as a solvent, while diesel fuel is a light oil. The way that the two combustion processes produce and deposit this by product is quite different. The carbon "buildup" is not what typically causes engine wear. It's the soot and carbon flow through the engine and the reaction in the oil that makes the difference.

I grew up in my Dad's shop in the fifties and sixties, so most, but not all, of my engine experience is pre unleaded fuel. The engines of the fifties in the days of road draft tubes were so nasty that I don't think ANY kind of fuel could have kept them clean. There have been so many overlapping improvements in engines, it's difficult to nail down particular changes that made drastic changes in engine life. The last ten years of carbs were the first ten years of EGR, electronic ignitions and drastic oil improvements.

The last years of carburetors were indeed better than the previous decades, but it has been my impression that they still did not meet the longevity of modern EFI engines.

Quite honestly, I've never considered any DRASTIC improvements to be a result of air filter changes. The paper element air filters were INDEED a serious improvement over oil bath, but a properly maintained oil bath air cleaner wasn't that bad. The problem was that very few people properly cared for their oil baths.

I agree that it's LOTS of things that add up to today's incredibly long engine life, but there are a few that stand above the vast majority of others.

My $0.02,